
Join the FWFSA |
Lurking? Click
the "EmailAb" button above and share your wisdom.
Or just send to abercrombie@wildlandfire.com
Your identity will remain confidential. |

Support the WFF |
|
DATE |
|
| 9/5 |
Even though its well into the season, there are some fine agencies and
companies looking for quality employees. A couple more have just been added to
the Jobs Page. The newest is based in Reno, NV and
includes free housing and a food allowance while on standby. Check 'em out.
Tell em Original Ab sent ya. |
| 9/5 |
To the person in NC asking about “areas of responsibility” in firefighting,
"Who is responsible for the district if it is found on federal, state or
private land?"
In California, we have DPA, (Designated Protection Areas). So, even if a fire
is on private land, (normally CDF, state responsibility), inside of National
Forest land, the USFS will fight the fire. Same with a chunk of USFS land in
State DPA. The CDF would fight the fire.
We do a 'Transfer of Acres" every year at the state level to even all this out,
so one Agency does not have too much responsibility for the other Agencies'
lands.
Cities, or Counties, usually have agreements with the State, as any land not
otherwise designated to a Fire department in California automatically becomes
the State's responsibility.
We also have Mutual Aid agreements with various tribes or other Agencies that
do not or can not protect their land to the extent necessary, so we respond
there, too, within the confines of the agreements. Usually with this kind of
agreement, the first shift is free to the receiving Agency; any more than that,
and they have to reimburse the responding Agency for suppression costs.
Hope this helped.
-MJ |
| 9/5 |
During one of this year’s siege fires in Northern California I observed a
good deal of discussion and disagreement over the mandatory days off requirement
for extensions. Different teams operated under differing interpretations of
policy leading to confusion as to length of assignments and time-out dates for
personnel, particularly with respect to seven day extensions. This created
problems for folks trying to keep their units properly staffed.
Below are the pertinent sections of the Interagency Incident Business Management
Handbook, February, 2008.
12.7.2.2. Length of Assignment
Standard assignment length is 14 days, exclusive of travel from and to home
unit, with possible extensions identified below. Time spent in staging and
preposition status counts toward the 14-day limit, regardless of pay status,
for all personnel, including incident management teams.
-----
12.7.2.4. Assignment Extension
Prior to assigning incident personnel to back-to-back assignments, their
health, readiness, and capability must be considered. The health and safety
of incident personnel and resources will not be compromised under any
circumstance.
Assignments may be extended when:
• life and property are imminently threatened,
• suppression objectives are close to being met,
• a military battalion is assigned, or
• replacement resources are unavailable, or have not yet arrived.
Upon completion of the standard 14 day assignment, an extension of up to an
additional 14 days may be allowed (for a total of up to 30 days, inclusive
of mandatory days off, and exclusive of travel). Regardless of extension
duration, two mandatory days off will be provided prior to the 22nd day of
the assignment. When personnel are required to take a mandatory day off,
which falls on their normal day off, there will be no pay compensation.
-----
One interpretation says that if a person receives a seven day
extension, that person may work 21 consecutive days, beginning travel on the
22nd day. A subgroup interpretation of this position holds that the person may
work 21 consecutive days but must begin travel at some point on the 21st day as
to avoid any time being clocked against the “length of assignment” on the 22nd
day.
A second interpretation says that if a person receives a seven day
extension that the two R&R days must be provided prior to the 22nd day of the
assignment and therefore the person can effectively work only nineteen total
days out of the 21 days. If the person took no R&R days mid-assignment then the
person would need to begin travel after day 19.
I’m agnostic as to which interpretation is correct but I do think there needs to
be a common understanding and implementation of the policy.
Dumbfounded in Demob |
| 9/5 |
Re: extinguishers in helicopters Brother Cub,
Helicopters used in the wildland community are equipped with manually operated
fire extinguishers that spray or dump suppressant into the engine(s) upon being
triggered. Some are also linked with the fuel shut off so that when they are
activated the fuel is also shut off, making them more effective, since the fuel
source needs to be cut off to have any chance off suppressing an engine fire. In
response to an automatic system, the firing of a suppressant agent into the
engine effectively terminates their use until they are overhauled and rebuilt.
To come up with the parameters and equipment to automatically trigger a system,
while also eliminating the triggering in a non-fire situation such as a hard
landing would be extremely demanding, not to mention you would then have the
worry of it being accidentally triggered in flight. Most of the systems in race
cars are not automatic systems but are triggered by the driver and if you have
seen any of these cars catch on fire the systems effectiveness is extremely
short and provide only a few moments of protection, if any. It is the rescue
crews stationed around the track that suppress the fires. Their effectiveness is
limited by where the nozzles are placed (usually the engine compartment) and the
amount of agent present.
Another issue is the re-ignition of fuel that has escaped the fuel cells or
is still in the fuel lines. Even if you were able to come up with a weight and
space conscious design for helicopters that placed nozzles in the personnel
area, you would also be creating a hazard to the occupants trying to escape due
to the visual obstruction, as well increasing the difficulty of breathing due to
adding another chemical to the already hazardous atmosphere. It would be great
if a system could be designed to avoid these and other problems that would be
created by such a situation, though.
JJ |
| 9/5 |
Looking thru the last posts since 9/1... Responsibility areas? Here's what
the Acronyms page has:
DPA- Designated Protection Area: That area for which a
particular fire protection organization has the primary responsibility for
attacking an uncontrolled fire and for directing the suppression action.
FRA- Federal Responsibility Area: National Forest Land, National
Park Lands, BLM Public Lands, National Wildlife refuges, Military Reservations,
etc.
SRA- State Responsibility Area: Watershed lands designated by the
State legislature. These include State Parks but more often are private lands
that have watershed characteristics. These lands are always unincorporated,
outside of City jurisdictions.
LRA- Local Responsibility Area: These lands are private lands
outside of watershed areas designated by the state, or lands incorporated into
cities.
Any agreement between these entities is governed by an MOU- or
Memorandum of Understanding. Sometimes responsibility for acres are
exchanged to reduce response time if there are closer responders. "You're
closer, would you do these? We'll do these if you do those." Usually things come
out pretty even.
Next topic:
Re "Girls in Groups" not as mature as "Fire Women in Groups"
Some generalizations:
My experience is that "when we are good we are very, very good" and
occasionally but rarely "when we
are bad, we are horrid!"
Really Really Good way more often than bad or horrid
Really Really Good when not really really young or inexperienced or immature
(similar to some high schoolers)
Really Really Good when not composed of 3 that are competitive types; --> 2 in &
1 out dynamic
Really Really Good when have good leadership and role models, often older
Really Really Good when crew has a history or track record of excellent values
like "honor, duty, service" and everyone wants and expects behavior that
supports those values; crew is inspired We'll really have made it when <tongue
way in cheek>
POSH is a way of life, not a mandated training
there are enough of us to have a powerful "Good Old Girls" network
we can have that brief unplanned meeting that covers important firefighting
issues in the women's rest room (or behind the same bush if on the fireline)
Don't rag on the engine 262 dad. Sounds like his daughter and the others on her
module were pretty young and lost their capt. Engine 262s' daughter, I hope it
wasn't so horrid that you give up on finishing the program and pursuing a fire
career. We need excellent firefighters, leaders and role models that happen to
be women. In retrospect many of us that fought our own battles now know that
what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger, if you let it -- if you persist
and can move on within fire. Tahoe Terrie |
| 9/5 |
Tanker 09 memorial services: This was posted today on the AAP message board, wanted to share it.
Tom Stein
Montana's News Station - Fair. Accurate. To the Point. -Neptune plane crash
victims remembered
|
| 9/5 |
Engine 262 and SBI,
I also wanted to respond to the comment made by Engine 262. One season my shot
crew had 6 women - 2 in authority positions. As a female used to being the only
woman I found having other women around a tremendous asset to the crew. Having a
female sup and squaddie to look up to - role model if you will- and having other
women crewmembers around made for variety in interactions. I didn't experience
any of the crew dynamics you are referring to. No matter the gender of my
crewmembers, we worked with each other and watched out for each other.
It sounds like your daughter has had a frustrating experience. I'm sorry,
however, in my experience it is an appropriate beginning to a federal land
management agency career. While I still follow fire news, after 12 years of
bureaucratic frustrations (very analogous to your daughter's experiences), I
have left federal land management agencies.
Your daughter will find the path that is right for her. I'm sure it will involve
many men and women.
Hycatal |
| 9/5 |
Ab.,
I know that race cars, for example, NASCAR race cars, have an automatic fire
extinguisher system activated by a crash that seems to work pretty well. Has
anyone ever considered installing a similar device on helicopters? There must be
weight and space constraints that make this impossible. I assume the military
has looked at this since they operate a lot of personnel carrying helicopters
and of course impact alone is a big factor in injuries.
This is a general question, I'm not trying to anticipate NTSB official
conclusions in any specific incidents. Maybe the WO has considered this in the
past, also the Fire and Aviation folks. Just wondering.
Brother Cub |
| 9/5 |
Is it just me? I just got done looking at the SEAT crash photos. My gosh
someone was watching
over them. Then reading up on the tanker crash in Reno, they were called
home......
I think the longer we are in this service the more we see leave us. We want to
be
able to ask the departed, what happened? how? but we can't.
Everyday we go out into the woods we walk a fine line, but it's what we want,
what
we do... Public Service.
Just about the time I am sick of the bureaucrats and the virtual hoops I have to
jump
through to do what I want (do my job). When I am having a hard time talking
myself
into PTs or even turning East on the highway instead of just going home. I get
the
opportunity to be reminded why I do this and why I love it and why I put on that
badge and shield.
You just can't quit until G-- tells you it's time.
jj |
| 9/5 |
-AB, Here's a note on Gene and crew from Tanker 09.
Sign me I Are IR
Thanks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
By now, you all are aware of the crash of Tanker-09, a P2V aircraft owned
by Neptune Aviation, at the Stead Airport north of Reno, Nevada on Labor
Day evening. Tanker-09 crashed shortly after take-off killing the three
crew members on board. Pilot Gene Wahlstrom, a well know figure to us here
in Region 4, Co-pilot Greg Gonsioroski from Baker, MT and mechanic Zachary
Vander-Griend from Missoula, MT and Gig Harbor, WA were the three crew
members killed.
The crash occurred around 6 p.m. Monday as the plane took off to support a
CAL-Fire incident in California. The aircraft had dropped a load of
retardant on the Burnside Fire in Hope Valley - Carson Ranger District,
Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest - earlier that day.
Pilot Gene Wahlstrom was a Forest Service pilot for many years -- serving
as both a lead plane pilot and Smokejumper pilot. In his last assignment
with the Forest Service, Gene was the supervisory pilot for the infrared
program based here in Ogden. Gene is survived by his wife Joyce who
retired from the Regional Office Budget and Finance staff in 2004. Gene
and Joyce remained in the Ogden area after retiring from the Forest Service
and made their home in Hunstville, Utah.
Gene's funeral will likely be early next week -- perhaps as soon as Monday.
Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of the deceased.
We continue to encourage each of you to do all you need to do to manage
risk of tragic outcomes for yourself and co-workers.
####################
Harv Forsgren
Regional Forester
Intermountain RegionI posted information on services on the
Hotlist thread. Ab. |
| 9/5 |
I am wading in again to an area where I have lots of passion and opinion.
How much knowledge I have is another story but I will try and express what I see
relating to the issue of firefighting costs,budgets, and even the EMT
discussion.
Jason got it right in so many points, PB’s questions and issues are real,
Smokeater’s crew did the right thing and hit the nail on the head, and NoName
brought out the statistical truth.
First, everyone agrees that fires are expensive in and of themselves. Fires and
their associated costs are not predictable. While 5 or 10 year averages point
out statistics, they can’t point out how much any particular year or any
particular fire will cost. It is the same as trying to statistically prove which
combination of numbers will win for a particular lottery event. While we can
debate what specific expenses drive up an individual fire’s cost (i.e. heli-moping
and/or jerky, PTP, etc.) that is a whole other exercise.
Second, a firefighting organization has fixed (or maybe a better term:
predicable) costs (i.e. equipment acquisition, facilities, repair/maintenance,
training, etc.). These costs are, for the most part, very predictable and can be
projected for years in advance by properly trained, educated and competent
financial personnel.
Here is the problem: we are mixing multiple federal land agency fire
organizations, each with their own budgets and way of calculating costs. We have
each of those agencies refusing to set a rock solid table of organization based
on fire activity, needs, and common sense. Then to top it off the associated
land agencies uses fire funds for non-fire expenses.
My example would be: you don’t see the FDNY funds being directed to pay for tree
planting in Central Park. Conversely you don’t see a tree planting program in
Central Park being terminated to help pay for a fire in an apartment building.
Solution: There are many ways to solve the problem; just no one in the upper
leadership of any land management agency wants to stand up and make the right
choice(s) and fight the fight. Everyone in our leadership likes their position,
likes their paycheck, is waiting on retirement and doesn’t want to be a
fighter…even for what is right. It’s a cultural thing of our organizations.
In my past life as a structure department chief when we needed a new fire
station based on specific criteria (development, population, fire activity,
response times, etc.) we made our case, included the associated costs in the
budget request, presented it to the county budget committee and it was approved
or not. If was not approved we did the best we could, then a house burned down
due to long response times, public outcry ensued, the county commissioners
approved the new station along with the associated budget increase because the
public demanded it.
But…we don’t do that in the federal government. We are given a set amount of
money (usually reduced from the prior year) based on no actual, logical,
real-life information and we are told to run our fire programs within the land
management agency (who incidentally siphons off a considerable portion of those
funds). So no one should be surprised when we can’t do our job the way we know
we should with the right personnel and equipment. Yes, I understand that there
is tradition and a rich fire culture in the federal land agencies…and we are
paying the price for it in this new day and age. Or should I say the public is
paying the price for it while we put our thumbs in the dike.
There is a lot of truth to the saying “divide and conquer”. And until the
federal wildland fire programs are united and one, we will not win and we will
not have the wildland fire program this great country deserves.BLMBoy |
| 9/5 |
Re: The
BLM Operations Alert (891 K pdf file) is a result of the 8-27-08 SEAT
accident near Meeker Colorado. Ab,
The pictures are kinda scary when you think how close this came to being a
fatality accident.
BLMBoy
Thanks, BLMBoy, I posted this on its
Hotlist thread yesterday. I post many Safety Alerts and Lessons Learned in
the discussion subforum. It was a very busy day, and I failed to put the link
here. The pics are rather gripping. Ab. |
| 9/5 |
Re EMT discussion: You asked several questions, and I'll give you the
answers based entirely upon CA Title 22. I cannot speak for other areas.
Is the mystery dentist's oversight really medical control?
Yes. Dentists do fully qualify under the medical direction standard, both by DOT
and CA Title 22.
Are firefighters using EMT interventions really acting under the direction of a
physician?
Yes. Standard EMT interventions (normal air adjuncts, first aid, oxygen, and
glucose) are covered entirely by local protocol (medical direction) while
advanced interventions (AED, Epi-Pen assistance, etc) are normally covered
through either individual agency approvals or countywide (area wide) medical
direction from the local EMSA.
Where are they directions?
See various state statutes and local EMSA direction. In CA, please read ENTIRELY
Title 22.
"If they are not acting under direction, then they are deviating from the
standard of care every time they intervene. "
Simply Wrong . EMTs act under protocols (medical direction) and EMT-Ps act under
protocols or standing orders (medical direction).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Folks, the battles and discussions were already fought (both in the agencies and
in the courts) 30 years ago..... The Wedworth-Townsend Act was adopted in CA,
and variations of it were adopted throughout the United States over the next
twenty years.
www.calchiefs.org/items/Foundations_EMS.ppt (1618 K ppt file)
KCK |
| 9/5 |
Smokeater:
I can just see & hear all the Forest service leadership scratching their heads,
looking into their gazillion page acronym hand book, management handbook
wondering "RIT Team, what's a RIT Team?" and "we didn't authorize this" and
"those darn fire people are doing their own thing again, didn't we tell them we
won't allow them to do structure protection???"
You have likely opened a can of worms in referencing a required crew task on any
interior attack structure fire. Tomorrow there will likely be a conference call
between the WO and the R5 RO trying to figure out what a RIT is, who you are and
what severe form of punishment they can bestow upon you for allowing your crew
to be a RIT...whatever that is...
Forest Service management, line officers etc., RIT stands for Rapid Intervention
Team. It might behoove line officers, especially in R5 to become familiar with
the term.
Tongue in cheek...sort of.
NoName Fed Fire Manager:
The FWFSA has spoken to both members of Congress and the Office of Management &
Budget about developing a new way to establish preparedness/suppression budgets
since Agency policy has led to artificially inflated suppression costs the last
few years and, if nothing changes, the 10-year average will simply be inflated
year after year.
Candidly, we have suggested that the preparedness & suppression budget be
developed through consultation between those that truly know what is needed,
i.e. the Agency FAM Director, his/her Regional FAM Directors and FMOs whose only
responsibility to line officers would be to provide them with the
information/budgetary policy they are creating. Taking budget matters for fire
out of the hands of line officers who have nary a clue about firefighting, let
alone funding a fire department (Sorry leadership, that's what it is, deal with
it) is a fundamental necessity to get spending under control.
Funny how those who complain about having to do fund transfers to pay for FIRE
are the same people who make the policies that needlessly inflate the
suppression costs and utilize FIRE money for an awful lot of non-fire stuff.
I am confident that more and more people in Congress are not blaming
firefighters but the Agency leadership. That is why there is a great deal of
consideration to taking the line officers out of the FIRE program mix and away
from making fire policy and handling fire funds. Unfortunately it is likely
significant changes like that won't happen until 2009.
To paraphrase the speech given by the Republican Candidate for Vice president
last night at their convention, (This is NOT an endorsement of anyone) she said
change is difficult to achieve, especially when the status quo and those who
want to retain the status quo are entrenched in leadership roles. It takes hard
work to make change when so many in leadership oppose change. So, we keep
hammering away until someone gets it. While we respectfully provide the
leadership with ample opportunities to do the right thing, we know that more
likely than not, to achieve what is right will require outside pressure
(Congress) to make any truly substantive changes.
Just know that those on the Hill know who to blame and those on the Hill are
growing weary with the delays and arrogance of those who, without the proverbial
congressional boot up their rear end, would be doing absolutely nothing on your
behalf.
Casey |
| 9/4 |
A lot of good comments on the use (and mis-use) of Emergency Medical
Technicians in federal fire programs. I too have heard that in the Forest
Service our medical director at the national level is a dentist, but beyond that
I am thinking this individual may be a figment of our collective imagination.
For many firefighters, getting your EMT certification was paid for by yourself,
on your own time and because you had an interest in medicine and you thought it
might help you down the road in getting a job. But just being certified as an
EMT is only half the battle. Without a medical director/doctor to evaluate your
skill level, provide training, and work with you, it is easy to get out of
practice. Maintaining your currency takes a lot of effort and it is essential
that you gain experience by working in a clinical or EMS setting to learn 'on
the job'.
I have been in situations where my supervisor told us to keep driving as we
passed an accident we witnessed, as we had to get back to our station and 'there
were other people around'. The fact that we had an AED, an ALS kit with three
EMTs on board made it particularly embarrassing.
My current crew won't even put a sticker on the bin door denoting 'First Aid Kit
Inside', as 'we don't want people to think we are an ambulance or anything'.
Some crews have embraced having EMTs and provide time for them to maintain
currency and training. Other crews are lucky to have the OSHA required first aid
kits in their trucks (only a few years out of date) or the 10 person first aid
kits from the cache (useless).
But without some direction from the top, it will continue to be a cluster
throughout the regions and across department lines.
I suggest that you all take a moment and address some comments to the NWCG
working group and see if we can't get the ball rolling in the right direction.
The previous group was disbanded as it did nothing in its previous two to three
years and the new group just started, so maybe we can ask our questions and see
if we get some sort of response.
their website is:
www.nwcg.gov/teams/shwt/iemtg/contactus.html to contact them or
www.nwcg.gov/teams/shwt/iemtg/index.html for their home page.
If anyone gets a response, please post it here... I've written a few times and
not gotten a response yet.
Aardvark |
| 9/4 |
PB,
Unfortunately I can attest to having had an epi at the ready for someone
having an anaphylactic response to an insect sting as they were unable to
respond normally due to an elevated heart and breath rate and an anxious
disposition due to general fright. In this particular case, although
risking reprimand, I certainly would provide the shot to someone who
would've certainly bought the farm vs. worrying about my certification
standings.
Call me crazy but most training and comprehension of standards goes out the
window when you are watching one of your own crewmembers hover somewhere
close to death.
AC |
| 9/4 |
More photos of T-09. Thanks, contributors. Ab.
T-09 at Fox, 2006; T-09 at Fox & T-09 Liftoff: I was extremely
saddened to hear about the crash of Tanker 09 this (yesterday) morning.
I’m a firefighter with Kern County FD and occasionally work at Fox Tanker Base
CA as a parking tender during local fires. In 2006 I came to know Tanker 09 and
its crew of that year very well. The crew that died was not the same but here
are some memories of T-09 in happier days. Photos compliments of Nathan F.
(0908)
T-09 on Silver Creek Fire 1 & 2: Our crew was sent to the Silver Creek
Fire near Bridgeport, CA and we had the chance to see Tanker 09 in action. These
were shot about two weeks before the crash. Photos compliments of Chuck S.
(0908)
I put them on the
AirTankers 26 photo page. Click on the thumbnail for the larger image. Ab. |
| 9/4 |
Ab, Last week my green engine responded to a structure fire, second in, my
crew took position as a RIT team. Did the crew that were inside the structure
care what color our engine was? did the home owner? I don't think so. We got the
job done. We (and I mean all of us red, green, white, or yellow engines) kept
the fire out of the wildland, therefore out of the Forest, which is good for us.
Isn't that what we are always preaching: keep the fires small, keeping it
confined to the house, would not have happened if it were not for our crew. My
crew did a great job, all this was because we train with Cal Fire. We are doing
the job of an all risk department now because that is what our customers expect.
Like it or not they are the ones that pay the bills.
smokeater |
| 9/4 |
Norcal AFEO, FGS (and schoolyard attorney), PB, etc,
Good discussion. I'm very aware of California's Title 22 and that is where the
DOT National Standard Curriculum is required to be used for instruction of EMTs
in California. Within that curriculum it is very clear that EMS personnel have a
"duty to act". The DOT curriculum also makes it very clear that this "duty" is
while "on-duty". It doesn't say anything about off-duty events. My question
still stands though, is there a CFR that requires this? For that matter, is
there an actual statute section or section of Title 22 in California that states
the circumstances under which an EMS provider has a "duty to act"? I haven't
found it in this state yet. If someone has this statute, code section or
regulation number available please post it.
Medical direction varies throughout California for EMT-B's. I'll use my region
as an example. The only BLS agencies with their own Medical Director are those
that have AEDs or any of the optional skill programs allowed for EMT-B's in this
state. The rest of the BLS only agencies do not generally have Medical
Directors. All EMT-B's in this area, whether their agency employs its own
Medical Director or not, operate under off-line medical control. EMT-B's are
actually not supposed to contact a base hospital in my region for medical
direction, but are to operate under the regional EMS agencies protocols. This is
similar in many parts of California.
As PB said, the state of affairs in this respect is most confusing, both here
and throughout the country. I hope it doesn't get balanced on the head of a fed
agency employee trying to do the right thing with the agency supplied equipment,
training and pay.
Sacmedic |
| 9/4 |
Ab,
Looks like I waded in anyway, doesn't it?
I did not parse my words carefully enough, and NorCal AFEO is correct. Many good
samaritan statutes 'apply' to EMTs acting outside of work (e.g., driving to the
golf course on the weekend.) But even though they "apply," they do NOT create
automatic immunity from suit. Malpractice, like water through a strainer
"applied" to cooked pasta, can still attach to an EMT to whom the statute
"applies." Here is why. A trained EMT has accepted the burden of behaving in
accordance with the standard of medical care appropriate for an EMT. That's part
of what the license means. No state statute will create undo that, and no
statute will create immunity if, for example, an EMT basic neglects to check the
airway of an unconscious patient. While that failure might not be negligent for
a lay person, it is negligent for an EMT, because the current, average EMT knows
better. Consequently, harms caused by failure to make a reasonable effort to
check the airway give rise to malpractice liability. Ditto any other failure to
behave like the average, reasonable EMT would. So while the statute "applies,"
the word "apply" does not mean "absolve under all circumstances." The public
policy motivating good samaritan statutes is to encourage lay persons to
intervene -- not to protect trained professionals who commit malpractice. A
plaintiff's lawyer will make absolutely certain the jury is keenly aware of that
before sending them to deliberate.
Someone asked about medical control. Many EMTs are permitted to use medical
interventions not otherwise available to the general public. (E.g., starting
IVs, administering Glucagon or Narcan, assisting an asthmatic with an inhaler,
etc.) These EMTs are not, however, licensed to use those interventions
willy-nilly. They are carefully overseen by a physician, whose position is
called "medical control." The physician can exercise his or her control over the
EMT in two ways. So-called "on-line control" occurs when the EMT contacts the
physician from the field, explains the patient's situation, and asks to use a
specific intervention. (For example: "Hi Doc. We found this guy unconscious on
the sidewalk with depressed respirations. No sign of trauma, but he's
unresponsive -- can we administer Glucagon and Narcan on the way to the
hospital, just to be safe?") So-called "off-line" medical control occurs when
the physician creates a set of protocols for his or her EMTs in the field. (For
example: "Any time any of you guys find an unresponsive patient with depressed
respirations, with no clear sign of trauma, go ahead and administer Glucagon and
Narcan by IV, just to be safe.")
On- or off-line medical control is required before the EMT can use any special
interventions. "Required," as in, required. Operating without medical control is
automatic deviation from the standard of care, and any harms caused thereby will
give rise to liability.
Whether the USDA has medical control in place excellently illustrates just how
messed up the whole situation is. I looked into this about a year and a half
ago, and NorCal AFEO is correct: the USDA does allegedly have a medical control
physician in place. That person is not available, however, to be contacted for
on-line control. And that person (to the best of my knowledge) has not
promulgated any operating procedures or guidelines that would be off-line
control.
(And yes this person is a dentist -- ring any bells? how about, "You're doing a
good job, Brownie." Disgusting, if true.)
So, riddle me this: Is the mystery dentist's oversight really medical control?
Are firefighters using EMT interventions really acting under the direction of a
physician? Where are they directions? If they are not acting under direction,
then they are deviating from the standard of care every time they intervene.
That's why I said in an earlier post that the Forest Service, by flagging people
as EMTs and sending them out to the line, is practically begging them to commit
medical malpractice. It has less to do with the quality of the care they will
provide than it does with a failure to properly authorize that care.
Lastly, a word on standard of care. You don't have to be excellent to avoid
malpractice liability. You are allowed to screw up, injure, and even kill
patients. You don't have to be perfect and you don't have to have a Luke
Skywalker-like sense of medical intuition. To avoid liability for negligence,
you just have to be current and average. The challenge, of course, is that you
have to be current and average every time you intervene.
Take care,
PB |
| 9/4 |
Re: Is the current system broken beyond repair?
Congress funds (at entirely the federal land management
agencies request) wildland fire suppression and preparedness based upon the
"Ten-Year" Average of acres burned and costs.
Some thoughts have also floated around to fund wildland fire suppression and
preparedness based upon the "Five-Year" Average of acres burned and costs.
Since this year is a record year on expenditures and shows that both the
Five-Year and Ten-Year models don't work, please consider the following factual
data:
As of today (2008), 64.616 fires have burned 4,626,490 acres. WELL Below the
averages.
The Five-Year Average is 62,599 fires and 6,922,216 acres burned.
The Ten-Year Average is 62,862 fires and 5,754,861 acres burned.
Record expenditures again... with Fire Managers and Wildland Firefighters once
again being blamed as the reason "the rest of the Forest Service" is being
punished for YEAR AFTER YEAR through "fire borrowing".
Fire Managers and Wildland Firefighters are simply tired of getting blamed and
held "accountable" for a system of circular bureaucratic blame without an
understood end-state of easily corrected courses of action... We have a system
where the decision makers (ie Line Officers) make decisions, but the fire
community is the one on the pointy end of the stick and at risk when their
decisions suck.
It is about time that the R-5 Fire BOD stands back up and unites in a common
voice... and leads like it used to under the leadership of Ray
Quintanar.... It is time to let the fire management program
leaders do their jobs of leading wildland fire programs.
We are about to get a "mission clarification letter" from above that somehow
expects to solve problems with firefighter retention, mission delivery, and cost
effectiveness.... Are you ready to defend your profession and your employees? If
not, you'll be watching the end of the Forest Service as we all know it.
NoName Fed Fire Manager |
| 9/3 |
Ab,
Having been in the fire service period for 9 years now, structural, fed and
state of Cal wildland, and as a private service emtb in cali, and having worked
both in and outside of R5 with the feds, I have came to some conclusions, that
take them or leave them, I think are valid points.
1. There are a lot of federal and state wildland firefighters whom have no
desire to be all risk. Many of them are in jobs or regions that have no visible
potential for being "all risk". Hotshots and other types of hand crews,
helitack, prevention techs and officers and etc... I believe that as a whole the
fire service needs to recognize these desires and wishes.2. There are many of
us who have no problem what so ever being in "all risk" positions, but are not
fully certified in all fields to achieve jobs with other agencies or just don't
have the desire to work for other agencies for various reasons. And some of
these people are in the same job positions as those who do not wish to be part
of an "all risk" agency.
3. The thoughts of various federal agencies to again move away from being all
risk is not only potentially hazardous from a moral and legal stand point, but
is very financially unwise I feel. We have out fitted many pieces of equipment
for one form or another of "all risk" response. Whether it be water rescue in a
park, or vehicle fires on a hwy through a NF or for a modified role at a
Structure fire that might threaten federal lands.
4. I think that if the agencies truly feel the need to "go back" to the way
it was when we didn't handle any thing but wildland fires, you will have to
strip red lights and sirens, air packs, double jacket hose, med packs, back
boards, and various other equipment off of federal equipment. Also you will have
to remove the words fire from every piece of equipment, both contract and
federal, change the position description and retirement of those of us in the
federal service, and launch a major publicity campaign to notify and enforce the
change with the public.
5. Truly what we need to recognize is that the public doesn't care what color
the apparatus is, what shape or configuration it is, or even if it is a engine
on a helicopter or a hot shot crew buggy that pulls up when they need the
assistance of the fire service. (Now okay a hot shot crew or any hand crew or
helitack probably doesn't really need to be at a structure fire some ones gonna
say and you're right; its just a generalized statement.) I have been with a crew
that stopped right after a traffic accident happened and we treated the patient,
He didn't care that we didn't arrive on a big red engine. Also more public are
using federal lands and building both seasonal and full time residences and
businesses in areas within and adjacent to federal lands. Sometimes we are the
closest emergency responders by quite a bit of time.
6. Any firefighter in any agency at any government level is underpaid for
their job, as are Law enforcement officers. And all types of firefighting across
the same board have retention problems. But if we go back in our ways and
enforce the strictly forestry techs position description etc. as listed in #4,
we are actually going to lose more firefighters than we gain or keep. Yes, for
people outside of R5, who have no desire to be "all risk" we need to figure out
retention stuff across the board, and help keep all of our personnel. True
Portal to Portal pay, constant H-pay for all, (including Helitack, hand crews,
fire equipment operators etc...) and various retirement issues need to be
rationally discussed at a national and congressional level and need to be moved
forward on.
The point is that I think what many county and state agencies in and outside
of R5 are doing should be a good guideline for what we should do with the
federal service. Have resources such as hand crews and some engines designated
wildland fire only. And right next to that resource can be another resource
properly equipped, trained and prepared to respond to any sort of emergency. And
let the applicants choose which it is they want. Just because a person has no
desire to do medical calls or structure fires shouldn't mean that they cant be a
firefighter on a heavy engine equipped with red lights and sirens capable of a
emergency response call when needed (and in this I mean such as structures
threatened by a wildland fire, so a "Code 3" response would be justified just to
suppress the wildland fire part of the call.)
Does this mean more money on training and equipment? maybe. But to me this
seams to be much more reasonable and justifiable to congress and to the public
than to attempt to, well for a lack of better terms go back in time to the early
eighties when all we did was fight vegetation fires on federal lands. And
believe it or not there are firefighters outside of R5 that we would gain in the
federal service, but wont because they want to be structure firefighters, and
respond to medical calls, etc... I have had the joy of working with several of
them on handcrews outside of R5.
We all need to give and take a little, I think, including those on capitol
hill, but for the good of those citizens that we answer to when it's all said
and done.
Does this sound like a pitch for a federal agency whose sole purpose is
federal fire?....maybe it is. If done properly maybe it would be beneficial to
separate fire from the various federal agencies, and actually unite them under a
truly single set of standards and qualifications.
May be im drinkin draino, but for what its worth, that's my thoughts.
Jason Myer
A Fed firefighter |
| 9/3 |
To all,
On Saturday Sept 6th, the Trinity County Fire Chiefs Association will be
sponsoring
a benefit BBQ for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation, at Lee Fong Park in
Weaverville,
CA. Beef, pork and chicken will be served. Please join us from 4pm to 7pm to
have
some fun, and raise some much needed cash for the Foundation.
Prindy22 |
| 9/3 |
Hey Ab, I think that PB has responded with the best info possible on the
subject. It is an absolute mess. It seems like every little "response area" (for
lack of a better term) has things that their EMT's can and can't do. I guess the
best thing to remember is that you do the best you can in the situation with the
understanding that you might have to explain your actions to a group of your
peers (a jury). When I go out on a wildland engine and a medical happens I try
to help the best I can with what I have until a local ambulance or response crew
shows up to take over. Also I know that the Park service has an active
Paramedic/EMT program so any parkie (or BIA) insight would be appreciated (a
couple of federal agencies that have ambulances).
Air goes in and out, blood goes 'round and 'round and anything else is bad...
R1 Gutterball Medic |
| 9/3 |
Not to beat a dead horse, but...
PB, if you say as long as you don't stop and identify yourself, your in the
clear. That may be true, especially if it's not a safe scene, but... Isn't that
why we are all in this line of work? Green, red, yellow, white engine etc.? If
that is so, better take all those fire stickers and other cool fire shit off
your POV. Had this conversation several times with my friends at CHP and they
are good at remembering license plates.
What is "Medical Control" that everyone keeps talking about?
Everyone keeps talking about what if what if? Is this how we are fighting fire
now too? Can anyone reference an example of case law where an EMT was
successfully proscecuted or sued for acting WITHIN the scope of thier training??
A case I can remeber involved myself. As a young AFEO, we responed to a mountain
biker down. Crashed in the middle of the road. As one of two fully equiped EMT's
on the crew, what did we do? Got the old stop signs and MT500's out and did
traffic control. Why? That is what our captain wanted us to do because he was
afraid of being sued or being looked down upon by the fire dept. That is
abandoment.
Just more gas for the discussion fire.
Former Green Soldier and schoolyard attorney |
| 9/3 |
PB,
Good points all around but not the correct definition of the "good samaritan
law". The only time it doesnt apply is when you are in an official capcity and
in pay status. Here is the official legal definition:
A good samaritan in legal terms refers to someone who renders aid in an
emergency to an injured person on a voluntary basis. Usually, if a volunteer
comes to the aid of an injured or ill person who is a stranger, the person
giving the aid owes the stranger a duty of being reasonably careful. A person is
not obligated by law to do first aid in most states, not unless it's part of a
job description. However, some states will consider it an act of negligence
though, if a person doesn't at least call for help. Generally, where an
unconscious victim cannot respond, a good samaritan can help them on the grounds
of implied consent. However, if the victim is conscious and can respond, a
person should ask their permission to help them first.
Some states offer immunity to good samaritan, but sometimes negligence could
result in a claim of negligent care if the injuries or illness were made worse
by the volunteer's negligence. Statutes typically don't exempt a good samaritan
who acts in a willful and wanton or reckless manner in providing the care,
advice, or assistance. Good samaritan laws often don't apply to a person
rendering emergency care, advice, or assistance during the course or regular
employment, such as services rendered by a health care provider to a patient in
a health care facility.
Under the good samaritan laws which grant immunity, if the good samaritan makes
an error while rendering emergency medical care, he or she cannot be held
legally liable for damages in court. However, two conditions usually must be
met; 1) the aid must be given at the scene of the emergency, and. 2) if the
"volunteer" has other motives, such as the hope of being paid a fee or reward,
then the law will not apply.
The following is an example of a state good samaritan statute:
a. When any doctor of medicine or dentistry, nurse, member of any organized
rescue squad, member of any police or fire department, member of any organized
volunteer fire department, emergency medical technician, intern or resident
practicing in a hospital with training programs approved by the American Medical
Association, state trooper, medical aidman functioning as a part of the military
assistance to safety and traffic program, chiropractor, or public education
employee gratuitously and in good faith, renders first aid or emergency care at
the scene of an accident, casualty, or disaster to a person injured therein, he
or she shall not be liable for any civil damages as a result of his or her acts
or omissions in rendering first aid or emergency care, nor shall he or she be
liable for any civil damages as a result of any act or failure to act to provide
or arrange for further medical treatment or care for the injured person.
b. Any member of the crew of a helicopter which is used in the performance of
military assistance to safety and traffic programs and is engaged in the
performance of emergency medical service acts shall be exempt from personal
liability for any property damages caused by helicopter downwash or by persons
disembarking from the helicopter.
c. When any physician gratuitously advises medical personnel at the scene of an
emergency episode by direct voice contact, to render medical assistance based
upon information received by voice or biotelemetry equipment, the actions
ordered taken by the physician to sustain life or reduce disability shall not be
considered liable when the actions are within the established medical
procedures.
d. Any person who is qualified by a federal or state agency to perform mine
rescue planning and recovery operations, including mine rescue instructors and
mine rescue team members, and any person designated by an operator furnishing a
mine rescue team to supervise, assist in planning or provide service thereto,
who, in good faith, performs or fails to perform any act or service in
connection with mine rescue planning and recovery operations shall not be liable
for any civil damages as a result of any acts or omissions. Nothing contained in
this subsection shall be construed to exempt from liability any person
responsible for an overall mine rescue operation, including an operator of an
affected facility and any person assuming responsibility therefor under federal
or state statutes or regulations.
e. A person or entity, who in good faith and without compensation renders
emergency care or treatment to a person suffering or appearing to suffer from
cardiac arrest, which may include the use of an automated external
defibrillator, shall be immune from civil liability for any personal injury as a
result of care or treatment or as a result of any act or failure to act in
providing or arranging further medical treatment where the person acts as an
ordinary prudent person would have acted under the same or similar
circumstances, except damages that may result for the gross negligence of the
person rendering emergency care. This immunity shall extend to the licensed
physician or medical authority who is involved in automated external
defibrillator site placement, the person who provides training in CPR and the
use of the automated external defibrillator, and the person or entity
responsible for the site where the automated external defibrillator is located.
This subsection specifically excludes from the provision of immunity any
designers, manufacturers, or sellers of automated external defibrillators for
any claims that may be brought against such entities based upon current law.
For example, the following is the Hawaii Good Samaritan Act:
"Any person who in good faith renders emergency care, without
renumeration or expectation of renumeration, at the scene of an accident or
emergency to the victim of the accident or emergency shall not be liable for
any civil damages resulting from the persons acts or omission, except for
such damages as may result from the persons gross negligence or wanton acts
or omissions."
NorCal AFEO |
| 9/3 |
On Saturday, September 27 numerous Firefighters from various agencies will
be honored in Ventura County for giving their lives serving the citizens of this
great country. A memorial will be unveiled honoring those Firefighters who
either worked for a fire fighting agency in Ventura County or died on an
incident in Ventura County. Most of these individuals passed away from cancer or
heart related complications directly linked to their employment, with exception
are several personnel from the Forest Service, six who died in a helicopter
crash on the Los Padres NF on August 26, 1972, one who passed away from lung
disease sustained from an oilfield tanker that had caught fire and spread to the
brush and another who died in a flood while attempting to rescue several Boy
Scouts who were stranded by rising waters before they were all swept away.
We are all too familiar with the hazards of flying but the exposure to the
products of a burning oilfield tanker and giving one's life to rescue another in
a flood were truly an individual's "duty to act".
Unfortunately, I know that there are numerous other examples of Wildland
Firefighters who have given their lives in an "All Risk" environment and history
tells us that there will be others in the future. We can only pray and train to
be the best that we can in what we do. Anyone who thinks that Wildland
Firefighters will not respond to "All Risk" incidents are only kidding
themselves.
The invitation and names of all of those being honored in Ventura County can be found
on the
attached pdf file (195 K).
Be safe, train like your life depends on it and take things slow, no one wants
to add any new names to any memorial.
Yellow Angel |
| 9/3 |
Engine 262,
"Sorry, pc or not, three girls on one Engine DOES NOT work, ask a
female ff about crew dynamics with several girls on a module."
I challenge you to explain exactly what you mean by that. You seem to want
things to be better for your daughter, but if we can't have more than one woman
(last time I checked, the FS was not in the practice of hiring girls and boys)
per module, how exactly do you expect that to happen? I ran an all female engine
crew for a full season, and that season is memorable for me because of the
problems I DIDN'T have. It was the hardest working, most professional crew I
have ever had. The women who worked on that crew have each told me that it was
the most supportive, least stressful crew that they have ever been on. And there
was no disparity in performance between my crew and those staffed with entirely
men. Funny how that happens when no one is taking credit for your ideas, no one
is talking about how you shouldn't be there, how weak you are, how "girls" can't
do this or that, etc, etc, etc......Sounds to me like you have your own
prejudices to work through before you go off blasting others who treated your
daughter poorly.SBI
Factor in lack of leadership with age and experience of the young women
he's talking about. It's too bad they didn't have someone like you for a leader.
Ab. |
| 9/3 |
Good afternoon, Ab.
Without wading into the discussion too far, I would like to delineate some
issues that are being confused regarding EMT cert stuff.
(a) Good samaritan statutes (every state has one) protect lay persons from
negligence suits when they find themselves in a situation for which they are not
trained, and then act with the best of intentions, to the best of their
ability. Good samaritan statutes do not, however, offer the same shelter to
persons with training. Persons with training includes EMT-B's. Here is a rule
of thumb: if you have a scope of practice, the good samaritan statute does not
apply to you.
(b) Good samaritan statutes do not create an automatic duty to act. (With one
exception: Vermont.) Rather, they generally require licensed individuals who
identify themselves to act. In other words, a doctor is welcome to drive past a
car accident without assisting, but if she stops and identifies herself as a
physician, she has an obligation to provide the legal standard of care. (In
Vermont, that doctor would be required to stop.)
(c) EMT-B's are not the same as EMT-I's, nor is EMT-I the "former" EMT-B. And
obviously, neither is a paramedic. Each certification has a different scope of
practice, which can vary by state. But for the purposes of a lawsuit, the
distinction is irrelevant -- they are all trained care providers who are capable
of committing medical malpractice.
(d) A physician's medical malpractice insurance does not necessarily insulate
from liability an EMT acting under that physician's direction. Rather, a
physician becomes jointly liable for malpractice committed by an EMT; the EMT
remains on the hook for any harm he or she causes. Medical control should never
be confused with immunity. Medical control just means that if you injure
someone, the plaintiff's lawyer will invite your doctor to sit next to you in
court.
(e) It is true that EMT's are out there everywhere, providing care whenever
they come upon an accident. That does NOT mean that they are immune to
liability for harm they may cause -- EMT-B, or otherwise.
(f) Any EMT (be they B, A, I, II, P, or whatever other funky designation their
state licenses) not acting under the direction of a physician, (i.e., acting
without medical control) automatically acts outside his or her scope of practice
if that EMT proceeds with any intervention not otherwise available to the
general public. That is true even if the intervention would otherwise be
available to the EMT. Example: assisting with an EPI-pen is within the basic
EMT's scope of practice in most states. However, assisting with an EPI-pen
without medical control is NOT within that EMT's scope of practice, because the
EMT is not licensed to administer epinephrine without a physician's blessing.
As a rule of thumb, if you are an EMT, and are considering an intervention that
you have to be an EMT to do, and you don't have medical control, you have
breached the standard of care. That means that if any, and I mean ANY, undue
harm is caused by your intervention, your liability will be inescapable.
I hope these clarifications help focus the discussion a bit. Frankly, I don't
think there are clear answers to all of the issues raised by state of the law on
this one, although I do suspect that when these issues are resolved (undoubtedly
through litigation), there is a very real chance they will be resolved against a
well-meaning Agency EMT.
PB |
| 9/3 |
To the Media regarding the crash of Tanker 09! What we know
right now for sure is that
- Retardant was requested for a fire.
- The air tanker carrying retardant took off at Stead (Reno) and
crashed.
- The NTSB is figuring it all out using interviews, dispatch logs,
looking at the plane, etc.
That's their job. Let them do it. We all want to know.
Condolences to families, friends, coworkers. This is hard for all. Ab. |
| 9/3 |
Re Militia: Yes, the militia is still alive and well in some parts of the
country. Having worked in R-9 in the past, I know this first hand. On the forest
I used to work on, we would not have been able to fight fire or do prescribed
fire without them. Heck for some time I was the only primary fire guy on my
district, so I had militia with me all the time (usually a GS-9 or up). But one
problem that can come with a militia-based program is the gross I mean GROSS
waste of fire funds. But that's another story!
AV |
| 9/3 |
Sacmedic
Medical Direction is from the EMS side, not federal. The law states that
any medical personal acting in an official capacity (yes you have to have a
registered Medical Doctor acting as a medical director) is required by law
to assist (medically) within their scope of practice. The USFS has a
medical director (or so I have been told since I started working) though no
one has been able to determine who he is and if he is registered. What it
sounds like is we have a medical director but he is not registered to be
one. I dont know 100% on this one and I am doing some research as to his
credentials. Funny thing is I have learned that he is a Dentist. I will
update as soon as I learn more.
NorCal AFEO |
| 9/3 |
Former green soldier
This is true, title 22 is "the good samaritan act".
NorCal AFEO |
| 9/3 |
Medical Control for EMT Basics in AZ Ab:
In AZ an agency may elect to have EMTs placed under medical direction
but are not required to do so by the State. Many agencies elect not to do
so.
Mike Bradley
Deputy IC
Northern Arizona IMT |
| 9/3 |
Sacmedic, in Ca (R-5), I believe that is all covered under Title 22.
Gutterball medic, not sure what you mean with the extension of a MD. Maybe for a
paramedic. In Ca., EMTs are a dime a dozen. Many are not employed as EMTs.
But they do act, ie; come across an accident, someone passes out at a restaurant
etc.
They are not working under a "doctor", but a duty to act.
I think you maybe mixing EMT-P with EMT. As I remember (former R-5 EMS
instructor, 5 years) and under Title 22, as long as an EMT functions with due
diligence
within their scope of practice (not negligent), they are covered. This is the
same for
blue shirt EMTs.
Former green soldier |
| 9/3 |
This just arrived in the Ab account although it was sent early yesterday:
Noname EMT,
In my (worthless) opinion, the Forest Service has its head in the sand when it
comes to putting EMTs on the fireline. What follows is just my opinion, and I'm
sure there are people who would fight with me over it, but with no oversight, no
medical control, and no clear set of protocols, the Agency is practically
begging you to commit malpractice.
You probably hear rationalizations like, "when I'm on the fireline, I have my
Forest Service hat, and when someone gets hurt I take it off and put on my local
fire department hat." That's absurd. The bottom line is whether or not your ass
is going to be covered in the event of a bad outcome. Your local fire
department's insurance isn't going to volunteer to pay the tab any old time you
step in to provide patient care -- it will cover you only within the scope of
your fire department activities. And begrudgingly, at that; it's insurance after
all. They're in the business of collecting premiums, not paying disbursements.
You may have heard that the doctrine of sovereign immunity will insulate you
from liability in your private capacity, so long as the incident takes place at
work. Poppycock. Medical care is hardly within the scope of the USDA's mission.
Or, if it is, the issues aren't clear-cut enough. The question, as you noted in
your post, is whether a plaintiff will be able to state a claim in court and tie
you up in legal stuff years, not whether the plaintiff will ultimately win on
that claim.
You might have been advised not to worry, because you will only be liable if the
four elements of tort are present (duty, breach, harm, causation). But what on
earth does that really mean? Your "duty" as a licensed EMT working as a wildland
firefighter could hardly be less clear. One one hand you have no direct medical
oversight, so from a legal perspective, is it really appropriate to intervene
without on- or off-line medical control? Wouldn't that be a breach of your duty?
Yet on the other hand your agency has identified you as an EMT and put you out
there with the representation that you will assist in the event of a medical
incident. What would happen if someone did get hurt, and you declined to
intervene without medical control? This isn't the case of the doctor who drives
by a car accident and declines to pull over; this is the case of the doctor who
does pull over, gets out her car, says "Hello, I'm a doctor, but I'm unwilling
to intervene." Isn't that a breach of your duty, too? Note that these are often
jury questions, so even if you are ultimately vindicated, resolution will not
come until deep into the legal proceedings.
If you feel confused, it is because you should. This stuff is confusing. The
issues here simply aren't clear, and every ambiguity creates a wedge from which
to leverage a lawsuit. The good news is that you probably have few assets (which
makes you "judgment-proof") and are unlikely to be sued, or if you are sued, you
will not be sued all on your lonesome. The bad news is that carrying liability
insurance will change all that -- suddenly you'll be a target. All the same,
banking on the fact that you have few assets hardly seems like a winning
strategy, does it?
I'm sorry that there is no clear answer for you. Eventually, there probably will
be some resolution on these questions. But it will likely take a lawsuit.
On a completely unrelated note, my condolences, thoughts, and sadness extends to
the families and friends of the tanker crew members who recently lost their
lives at the Reno Airport.
PB |
| 9/3 |
"the greatest good, for the greatest number, in the long run"
Casey said,
"With the diversity we have, I learned a long time ago we can't please
everyone. Heck we even lost a member from Nevada recently because she was
tired of reading all the "whining on TheySaid from R5" and didn't want to be
an all-risk firefighter."
We are wildland firefighters... We are firefighters. It doesn't get any more
simple than that, or more confusing. "All-Risk" has just been a confusing factor
for some who don't understand or appreciate our history and losses as a wildland
fire community.
'We can't please everyone' ..... As the FWFSA, we all too well know that things
are ever evolving and changing, but WE (as a community) CAN provide for "the
greatest good, for the greatest number, in the long run".
Likewise, Casey Judd and the entire FWFSA Board of Directors (including myself)
serve at the pleasure and support of our membership (GS-2 through GS-14), and
through our extended outreach programs with members, prospective members, and
through extensive Congressional (Legislative) and Executive Branch contacts on
wildland fire related issues.
The FWFSA has its finger on the pulse of what is happening in the federal
wildland fire program. The FWFSA is a national employee association of federal
wildland firefighters entirely supported by field and manager membership. The
FWFSA is not a Union, but a cross section of the wildland fire community as a
whole.
If you would like further information, please contact Casey Judd (FWFSA Business
Manager), or a member of the FWFSA Board of Directors
www.fwfsa.org ..
/s/ Kenneth Kempter
Vice President
Federal Wildland Fire Service Association (FWFSA) |
| 9/3 |
Hi Ab, Just to add to the debate about EMTs performing while on the line,
remember that an EMT license is an extension of a medical doctor's license. What
I mean by this is that as an EMT you work under and for a MD who ultimately has
responsibility for "your" actions as an EMT while you are performing your duties
(you are under his/her malpractice insurance). This is some of the reason why
you run into varying levels of EMT-B care in the same state/region (I am not
sure about IMS personnel but I believe that they have a MD they work under on
the larger type 1 and type 2 fires). Anyways, the feds have always been skidish
about getting into medical because they don't want the hassle of having an MD
just for say a local office or forest. Just remember that even though they might
want to take your ability to "legally" treat someone, you have the knowledge an
the skill to make a positive difference in someone's life with as little as a
set of rubber gloves.
R1 Gutterball Medic |
| 9/3 |
NorCal AFEO,
Can you find the CFR that applies to federal employees establishing a "duty to
act" on EMS incidents? I've represented private EMS employees in California as a
shop steward over this issue and neither I nor the large employer involved could
find local or state statute/regulation that pertained. I agree wholeheartedly
that our curriculum's talk about it. I'm just not sure it actually exists in
law. Obviously in a lawsuit it's about what you can convince a judge and jury
of, but if anyone knows where to find this in federal or California law I would
love the reference.
Sacmedic |
| 9/3 |
I find the discussion of AD pay curious. The noise just won't go away.
Actually we have gone away, but someone keeps making noise. Not me.
Whenever I wonder if I'm being lazy about not heading west on wildfires, I think
of AD pay rates. 25-35% of my past pay rate? Getting paid close to minimum wage
rather than good old government employee rates? No overtime? No, I'm staying
home for good. I shredded all my certificates and such when I retired anyway and
the USFS can't seem to find the records and were always messing up with
misplacing stuff anyway. And I had my task book for the next highest position
for eight years without the opportunity to get it completed, despite yearly
assignments. I was told task books and fire details were not important by my
supervisors several times. Who cares? Not me. I'll stick with retirement. The
next generation will have to deal with the problems we created (me and them).
After all, us baby boomers want all the benefits and lower taxes after we're the
ones who broke the bank, ran up the deficit, and to top it off, we voted for
folks who would give us $600 in deficit spending just because we like free
money. I'm not saying I'm right or that its fair, or such. Its just reality.
Aroff. (A retired "ologist" fire fighter). |
| 9/3 |
I'd sure like to see the quantified and verified data, and how it was
gathered and parsed. I'd be especially interested if the data came from R-8 and
R-9.
"We found foresters, 'ologists, engineering types, techs and
professionals filling entire 20 person crews (type 2). Others staffed
engines, worked in expanded dispatch centers, served as com unit leaders or
com techs, GIS specialists, finance chiefs, procurement, security, staging
area managers, strike team leaders, division supes, logisitics chiefs,
planning chiefs, ops chiefs and ICT3s. Across the country this totaled in
the thousands."
I suspect that the data is fundamentally flawed; the collection method is
flawed or skewed; or the intent and purpose of the data collection is being
wrongfully interpreted.
If this "collection" request was indeed from the WO...... It (and the results)
is FOIAable and should be released on the record for each person to come to
their own conclusions.
Respectfully,
Gizmo
I met some "non-ff-retirement" firefighters during this summer's norcal
fires. They were not from R5. Ab. |
| 9/2 |
Hi Ab-- Here is a picture of T-09 from last fall at Fox Tanker Base in
Lancaster, CA.
I knew two of the three folks who were killed, and their loss is huge. It's a
very sad day in the tanker base world.
MEL
I put it on the
AirTankers 26 photo page. Click on the thumbnail for the larger image.
Thanks MEL. Ab. |
| 9/2 |
Ab, The "militia" lives.
Or at least it did throughout the season of 2006. I remember the message coming
through that the WO wanted a count of the militia. That filtered down to forests
and dispatch centers. It was fairly simple. Look at the resource orders you
filled for "off-forest" assignments, and do a number count of the "militia"
(non-primary firefighters aka those who don't qualify for ff retirement).
We found foresters, 'ologists, engineering types, techs and professionals
filling entire 20 person crews (type 2). Others staffed engines, worked in
expanded dispatch centers, served as com unit leaders or com techs, GIS
specialists, finance chiefs, procurement, security, staging area managers,
strike team leaders, division supes, logisitics chiefs, planning chiefs, ops
chiefs and ICT3s. Across the country this totaled in the thousands.
Maybe they've all quit in the past two years. Someone mentioned there is "no
incentive" for militia to respond. I don't know.... maybe they like the
adventure, the change of routine, or perhaps the approximate 100 hours of OT one
can earn in a 2 week off-forest assignment. Hey, maybe the militia folks have
bills to pay just like the primary firefigher types.
I know folks can have different perspectives or views of the world. I've not
seen the Pacific Ocean in a decade, but I'd trust that it still exists even if
only on the word of someone with a different vantage point.
I'll check back in a couple weeks.
Ya'll stay safe.
OFG |
| 9/2 |
And tragically... This ’55 report
California A-Flame (600K pdf file) says so much…
The last line…
”And still another tragic loss-- one firefighter was killed by a falling
tree.”
I wonder how his family was cared for after his death…
Shari |
| 9/2 |
CNH (California/Nevada/Hawaii Forest Fire Council) has three $500.00
scholarships available (two for mainland students, one for Pacific Islanders)
for students from the states of California, Nevada or Hawaii (or Pacific
Islands) in the Wildland Fire arena. The application deadline has been
extended to October 1, 2008.
The Guidelines and Application can be found at
http://cnhfire.org
Thanks
-MA- |
| 9/2 |
I received a question from a student in an on-line class I’m teaching. He
was wondering how wildland firefighter’s “areas of responsibility” were broken
down. I assume by district, but how much area is found within a district?
Who is responsible for the district if it is found on federal, state or private
land?
This type of firefighting is relatively alien in NC. We have a few wildland
fires but we can normally gain access to them and with the help of the forest
service, contain them.
Jonathan Malinowski
Training Officer
Rocky Mount Fire Department |
| 9/2 |
Sad news. A P2V air tanker from Neptune Aviation went down outside of
Stead, NV killing three crew members. God rest their souls.
GordoFire Community, I tried to post this info on theysaid yesterday
evening but there were so many folks on the Hotlist that the server wouldn't
work for posting. It is sad. Here's the
Hotlist thread. Feel free to post condolences there. Thanks Gordo. Ab. |
| 9/2 |
No name EMT
As much as I hate to admit it we (I have my EMT-basic as well) have put
ourselves between a rock and a hard spot. WE ARE REQUIRED BY LAW
WHEN IN UNIFORM AND ON DUTY TO ANYONE IN NEED. It is
called "DUTY TO ACT". I am sure you remember the speeches from class.
We however are protected in the law as long as we keep our care "WITHIN
YOUR SCOPE OF PRACTICES". The catch 22 right now is how the forest
service is trying to take a step back and go away from medical care and
SCBAs (yes the park service in R-5 has made the decision and has pulled
off all their SCBAs and the FS is looking to do the same this winter, there
was some murmurs/rumors of it this past winter) yet we have folks that have
EMT licenses. Under duty to act we are required by law to respond to and
give medical care if we have an EMT-B (formerly called EMT-I) or Higher
on the module or we are setting our EMTs up for a Negligence law suite.
I am Scared on this one and I am waiting to hear of the first one to come
about. I guess the best advice I can give you is if there is a need provide care
within your scope of practice and you wont have to worry about anything.
NorCal AFEO |
| 9/2 |
Engine 262:
Read through your post and am glad to hear the good and the bad. It is nice that
there has been some good.
I went through the apprenticeship program in R-6. I liked the program but didnt
trust it and ultimately demo-ed out to a Sr FF then merit promoted to an LEO
position in another region. However I did get a great experience as my
supervisor was awesome. He kept me lined out and listened to my feedback. I got
a lot of experience. I did a lot of detailing and filling in on modules to get
my hours done. I spent some time with a great R-6 IHC and took a great deal of
knowledge and experience. I LOVED my prevention time and it is what helped me
get my new job. The troubles your daughter experienced are not right. First of
all, it is the program's responsibility to get her up to speed. The program is a
THREE year program MAX!!! I am sure she worked well over the total number of
hours that is required. She should now be non competitively in a GS5 position. I
smell a grievance. I would for sure because the wages suck after that long. I
assume she is a 4 step 3 now. I say move on and hopefully she started a lot of
applications and did her KSAs well.
All in all I wish the best of luck. If there is any help I can be, either you or
your daughter can contact me. I did do some time in R-5 as a temp but that was a
while ago
Guns-n hoses |
| 9/2 |
OFG said,
"Gizmo, Your perspective is limited and incorrect. Look at type 2 crews,
many of the staff on engines, folks in logistics, planning and
finance.....There are thousands of "militia" (non-"primary" firefighters)
contributing to the firefighting effort each year. Ya'll need to get out
more."
I read your reference three times before it sank in.... Either you intended
the sentences above to be tongue-in-cheek, or you have been detached from the
field for a long while.
I agree with you though that P-to-P should include everyone, but the key issues
shouldn't be clouded or ignored at the expense of "the greatest good, for the
greatest number, in the long run". I'll stick to my perspective as being not so
limited nor incorrect as you may have wrongfully assumed. When I started, much
of what you described was in place.... but 28 years later.... it's a much
different world within the federal wildland fire program.
Respectfully,
Gizmo
This could simply be what each of you see at your own geographic location.
It's fine to agree to disagree. I'd be happy to pass messages behind the scenes
if you like. Ab. |
| 9/2 |
Noname 51:
No harm, no foul. I could have been gentler
To Planning For Retirement:
I'm more than aware of that disparity and the "workarounds," and I too
applaud those who do it.
But glad that you brought it up. I sat out the last 2 years partially over
the AD rate issue.
I'm at least getting OT off a base AD AOBD rate as a temp employee of the
state of S Dakota as their AOBD.
But I've got friends who have in fact picked up at portal-to-portal at an
excellent negotiated base rate with OT. Your wife is another good example.
Meanwhile the Business Mgmt Working Team, comprised mostly of folks who feel
more comfortable harassing an IC over a case of supplemental food (peanuts)
than asking the AOBD (me) down the road anything about the $500K I'm
clocking off everyday, they are the real problem, a true case of the tail
(Admin) wagging the dog (Agency Administrators and Fire directors).
And NWCG and the Fire Directors go right on ignoring the absolute irony of
lousy AD rates for a hugely experienced but dwindling workforce of retirees
on the one hand, and on the other an ex-Fed ATGS making close to $70K in 2
months by signing on with a local entity.
But why should we be surprised. This last 8 years has been nothing but
Alice in Wonderland anyway, so it all fits within that scheme of things
(this last rationale is the only way I've managed to keep halfway sane from
2001 on, though there a few out there who will dispute even that assessment
(my half-sanity, that is, not the fairy land of bs we've been living in)
Fact: The cost of a 4-basin wash sink in camp on daily rental is more than
I receive as an AD-K for a 16-hour day. LOL
Regards,
Hugh Carson |
| 9/1 |
Noname 51 and Hugh Carson,
Not only are a lot of retirees being hired by local fire departments with
contracts with federal agencies where they receive higher wages, portal to
portal and the departments receive an additional admin fee, the departments are
also allowed to charge post coverage behind the employee even if the employee is
only part time. This is bringing in large amounts of revenue for these
departments and driving costs.
My wife retired from a local government department but is still employed
part-time for ICS assignments to the feds. During the recent Northern California
fires she made $ 20,400 dollars for 34 days and the department charged a 20%
admin fee and post coverage. Her only employment for this department is to fill
the ICS position request. Just an example of cost containment at its finest, but
all legal and up front.
Planning for Retirement |
| 9/1 |
Fish01
Sorry about that, I was referring to the last paragraph of your post:
"Because of that, many ADs ( mostly retirees) have joined local fire
departments
which then makes them employees of that department. They make a lot more
than
the FEDS at that point, making similar to the Cal Fire /Muni pay. They are
paid PP.
The fire departments bill back to the Feds with an admin fee for the
service.
Which earns the department some extra cash."
This "tactic" of getting folks more money is a little disturbing but hey,
more power to 'em.
If the Feds want to keep dishing out the money in this manner, so be it.
Hugh Carson
"But the real culprit in all of this are the federal agencies who have
been
totally negligent in addressing staffing problems on incidents, problems
which the AD community have and continue to partially solve, though at
comparatively ridiculously low wages"
This is what I was referring to and its a big problem. Sorry to get you
worked up on this
labor day, that wasn't my intent.
Noname 51 |
| 9/1 |
Engine 262, Back in 78, I had a young woman on my Basic Forest Firefighter
Training class.
She ran circles around most of us. She is now an SFR1 in Central Cal...still
with
CalFire, and still kicking a$$! God love her, I don't think there was anyone
that
wouldn't follow her into the fight.
Several changes were made to a few stations to accommodate her, but she kept
on playing the game. Talked to her a few months back, she's doing great. Tell
your
daughter to keep on keeping on. There need to be more women like that in this
industry!
KUDOs and good luck to her!
TS (SFR1 = State Forest Ranger 1........same as a Battalion Chief) |
| 8/31 |
Apprentice Program I have bit my tongue for four years, enough!
Where does one start in
describing the joint US Department of Labor/USDA
Forest Service's Wildland
Firefighter Specialist apprentice program?
Admittedly I'm old-school, started fighting fire at 16 back in 78', when
CDF had brush crews/fire aids, that's where I started, learned from the
ground up carried brass and hose, only permitted to use handtools, nothing
with a motor since we were only 16. Graduated University w/BS, was primary
fire, now I'm not but still a crewboss. So...when this fire apprentice
program came along, and my daughter was graduating high school but not
liking the whole college scene, we attended a forest service "job fair" in
So Cal at my duty station (Region 5). I apologize to my daughter right now,
my mistake!
I should have known better, it was all puppies and rainbows, and I'll tell
you one more thing, I swear they said the kids would convert as GS 5/7/9's,
but I didn't get it on tape, d*mn! Of course we were a proud Forest Service
family, continuing the tradition, signing-up the next generation, make us
proud and do something noble, you know, add to the good-of-the-order,
things I was taught, believed, still do.
Well, maybe not!
First Season:
Handcrew. The first call came from my kid at 0100, 12 travel hours away,
and she was hiding in her truck with the doors locked because her "Mentor"
got ticked-off at the crew for someone eating his stash of (insert favorite
food/beverage here) and he screamed at everyone in the barracks that he was
going to cut everyone's throat that night. Everyone scattered, she was
scared, I don't blame her, 18, female, first week away from home and 700
miles away! She slept in the back of her SUV most of the season.
Her module assignment was for handcrew, fine, handcrews are great, I still
enjoy leading handcrews. Her handcrew was type 2 and not a crew, it was a
short crew of 10, with another short crew of 10 from another District. They
were a project crew retained by the forest for fire assignments if the
forest got desperate. Needless to say the caliber of supervisory and
permanent folks on the crew was reflective of their achievement of being
placed on this crew and in life in general. Leadership was not present, the
crewboss was a short-timer, old, burned-out, and did not subscribe to the
"teach-for-success" philosophy, doubt he could spell it! Their assignments
were very few and far between, and a fiasco when they were on assignment as
there was no real Supt., no Captains, and the Squaddies were old temps, one
of whom was the purported throat-cutter. Of course when fire season was
over the crew had not earned even half of the supposed crew-module
on-the-job hours, her task books went completely unsigned for the tasks she
had completed, and she was automatically way behind the curve on completing
the program on-schedule.
Second Season:
Helitack, was actually good! Good Supt, reasonably good
Captains, Squaddies were ok but still immature enough to carry on the
social vendettas inherent on any crew, but what the h*ll it was day and
night from handcrew. The only real friction on this crew was the habit of
some of the crew to tell the females on the pack-outs that they (the guys)
were going to get them (the girls) to quit, and the guys would load-up the
girl's packs to over a hundred pounds, mind you the girls are about 120
pounds soaking wet, this would be the same as the guys packing-out 210
pound packs on their backs, which of course the guys never did. The girls
decided to take the challenge and said they would rather die than quit and
the pack-out started. The guys then told the girls that they were gapping
the line and to hurry up the pace. Yes, the girls finished, yes they
gapped, but... they finished with 100+ pound packs and the macho guys hiked
out with 60 pound packs, not 210 pounds. Besides this and the inherent
risks those pack-outs entailed for the safety (knee joints, ankles, backs,
falling great vertical distances) and unity of the crew, helitack was a
good season. Oh yeah,1 taskbook with about 5 tasks signed, task books
got signed (a bit)!
Season Three:
Engine. Model 62, Type 3, great Captain, horrible FEO, good Squaddie. The
Captain was former military, squared-away, fair, knowledgeable, taught for
success. High hopes. He needed to promote so detailed out as a single
resource for the season and the FEO was acting Capt. Several out of Region
assignments, no chain-of-command, no discipline, and three girls on one
Engine. Sorry, pc or not, three girls on one Engine DOES NOT work, ask a
female ff about crew dynamics with several girls on a module. My kid was
the Senior FF for the season but was not provided the chain-of-command from
the FEO so there was no hierarchy and the crew kind of hobbled along
through the entire season. Yes they made it home safe, no they didn't get
their expected hours, and no my kid did not get her task books signed off
for all the work that she did complete, again.
Season Four:
The forest doesn't really know what to do with my daughter at this point
since she has successfully completed both academies, has completed all
three module assignments, but is lacking in completion of ojt hours and CDL
permit training. Well the forest graciously announced they were extending
her apprenticeship another year, to season five, in order to catch-up her
ojt hours and get the CDL permit training and hours. Sorry, any extension
is voluntary not compulsory, there is a four year max contract, indenture
date to completion date. The USDAFS must complete all apprenticeship
training and ojt hours within that four year window, period. Big Meetings
had to happen. Outcome was the forest had to juggle her to another District
where they were squared away, got her the hours she was lacking and the CDL
stick time and experience, and completed the forest service obligations of
completed task books as well. She is still working to get a conversion to
her choice of a module (read the FSM, "any unit in the Forest Service").
The BAD LIST, the common denominator's that are sinking this program (my
opinion of course having lived four years of it):
- Apprentice Coordinators that are assigned the responsibilities as
additional work rather than volunteering for a separate, full-time detail.
- Not moving the Apprentices around from unit-to-unit or forest-to-forest
for each Module assignment for breadth of experience.
- Not providing access to Lotus Notes or a USFS computer so the
Apprentices cannot keep track of their hours.
- Assigned District Apprentice training officers that outright lose the
Apprentices training records and completed hour records.
- Task Books are not assigned to anyone with a supervisory position on the
Modules so said books are not signed off to record experience.
- Mentors are not permanent employees, they are usually temps, who make a
special project of making Apprentices quit.
Hazing and harassment continue each and every Module, especially for the
females, the testing never stops, they never get accepted!
- Temporary employees are on each Module and they are not drug tested.
- They get blitzed, drag the crew down, both physically & emotionally.
- Housing sucks, discipline (read safety for the females) is nonexistent,
cleanliness is nonexistent, inspections are nonexistent, no repercussions.
- Module leaders who are retired-in-place cannot stand the Apprentices and
single them out for special hazing, humiliation, and retribution.
- There are NO ADVOCATES on-forest for these kids, none, they are sold a
bill of goods at the job-fairs, signed-up to a government contract, told
they are hero's at academy, and treated like poop when they arrive at their
District.
- Approximately 50%-70% of the Apprentices who started with my daughter at
Basic Academy quit and did not finish, most didn't complete 2 full seasons.
The GOOD LIST:
- Training, and lots of it, good training at McClellan.
- Helitack skills and competencies that are always good to have, and
taught well.
- Developing a healthy respect for teamwork, hard work, and surviving life
experiences.
- Developing a self-reliant attitude and character.
- Learning fire from the ground up.
- If you survive, especially as a female candidate, a sense of real
accomplishment that cannot be taken away.
That's all I have for the Apprentice Program as R5 runs it. Doubtless
someone, or many, will think I'm full of cr*p for writing this but it is the
honest truth of what I and my daughter have experienced. Hope this is published
and that someone at a higher GS level will take this for constructive feedback
and not just for criticism.
Engine 262.
Thanks, Engine 262, you old theysaider, you.
Isn't this primarily a forest issue? Many of the problems or shortfalls you bring up sound like they're fixable.
How can these things get streamlined?
The hazing has got to stop.
I'm glad you
included a GOOD LIST. Your daughter has always been a hard worker and self
reliant. How could she be better? The steel demonstrated by Demi Moore in "GI
Jane" comes to
mind... Ab. |
| 8/31 |
Noname EMT,
I can only offer some suggestions, this is not legal advice, but my best
suggestion is good documentation. Hopefully when you are treating a
patient in the field you are also filling out a PCR (patient care report). Be a
thorough; document EVERYTHING. Document who is on scene, what the
circumstances/environment is like, treatment provided, etc. If a person refuses
treatment or transport make sure that when you document you include that you
have informed the patient of all consequences and so on. Have them sign an AMA
(against medical advice). If circumstances occur that a patient is unable to be
transported be sure to document that as it happens. Hopefully this will be
helpful, but today it is really scary to think about as you have mentioned.
Remember what they say "If you didn't write it, you didn't do it." Reviewing the
medical/legal/documentation section of your EMT book my be helpful and of course
always work within your scope of practice and protocols.
Remember the four things to prove negligence:
- Duty to Act,
- Breach of that Duty,
- Proximate Cause (something that the responder did to worsen or cause the
damage suffered by the patient), &
- Actual Damages.
In regards to PLI, it has been said by many that if you have things to
protect, such as house, toys, etc then PLI is a consideration, especially if
your agency doesn't have enough to back you.
Good luck, I hear you on your concerns.
SoCalMedic |
| 8/31 |
Hugh Carson,
All I can say is THANK YOU for setting the record straight and delivering a well
said
and much needed lesson to the uninformed. You did it much better than I could
have.
R6AD |
| 8/31 |
More on AD Issues:
For those of you interested in "just the facts," the page I put up 3 years
ago as Chair of ADFA still is up.
www.eteamsolutions.com/adfa1/legislative.htm
It includes a wealth of material:
Our letter to Congress
ADFA Congressional/Media Briefing Package
Pay Inequality Analysis: Difference Among Pay Period Earnings Of GS
Employees And An AD Employee's Earnings At 2006 Rates;
Etc.
As I said in my previous post, Casey is on the right track by early
recognition that the agencies are not going to change a damn thing of their
own accord, and pursuing the folks who count and can do something about it
(Congress).
Casey even offered last spring to pursue the AD cause as a subsidiary issue
in his dealings with congressional delegations. I sent him all these
materials, and referred him to the current chair of ADFA
But I don't think there was much interest on the part of the current ADFA
Board. He has had much bigger fish to fry, and with apparent total
disinterest on the part of those he had offered to help, results or lack
thereof were predictable. Nada.
Keep the faith,
Hugh Carson |
| 8/31 |
In regards to the discussion on EMT's in the fire service and the need for
medical direction, standard operating procedures and protocols. (bold italics
added for emphasis)
United States Department of Transportation
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
EMT-Basic: National Standard Curriculum
Medical Direction Statement
Medical direction of the EMT-Basic is an essential component of prehospital
training,
and thus is included in this revised EMT-B curriculum. Physician involvement
should
be in place for all aspects of EMS training programs, specifically for every
ambulance
service/rescue squad. On-line and/or off-line medical direction must be in place
to
allow for EMT-Basics to carry and assist with the administration of medications
to
patients.
Quality improvement is also a required component of EMS training. The role
of medical
direction is paramount in assuring the provision of highest quality prehospital
care.
Medical Directors should work with individuals and systems to review prehospital
cases and strive to achieve a sound method of continuous quality improvement.
Medical direction
1. Definition
- a. A physician responsible for the clinical and patient care
aspects of an EMS system.
- b. Every ambulance service/rescue squad must have physician medical
direction.
- c. Types of medical direction
(1) On-line
(2) Off-line
- (a) Protocols
- (b) Standing orders
- d. Responsible for reviewing quality improvement
2. The relationship of the EMT-Basic to medical direction
- a. Designated agent of the physician
- b. Care rendered is considered an extension of the medical
director's authority (varies by state law).
F. Specific statutes and regulations regarding EMS in your state.
ref:
www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/ems/pub/emtbnsc.pdf
As I just came from a fire assignment in Oregon, I include the following; (bold
italics added for emphasis)
Oregon Revised Statute 682.245 reads in part as follows:
- The Board of Medical Examiners for the State of Oregon shall adopt by
rule a scope of practice for emergency medical technicians B, I and P
- The standing orders for emergency medical technicians may not exceed the
scope of practice defined by the board.
- No emergency medical technician shall provide patient care or
treatment without written authorization and standing orders from a
supervising physician who has been approved by the board.
- The policies and procedures for applying and enforcing scope of practice
may be delegated in whole or in part to the Health Services of the
Department of Human Resources.
The above listed scope of practice is taken from Oregon Administrative Rule
847-35-0030, dated 4/98. As Forest Service employees operating as EMTs whether on the fireline or a
project, it is difficult to know what local protocols to operate under when you
have certification from one state and are working in another. As is very clearly
noted above, without medical direction from a physician, you are in violation of
the law.
The answer to this dilemma is of course to develop our own protocols and
procedures under medical direction at a national, regional and local level. Some
regions (R-5 for instance) operate in an 'all-risk' environment and already have
a system in place, however this system also requires improvement.
I believe that the individual from California with the very low EMT
certification number misunderstood. Operating as an EMT, even when not
completing the more difficult or technical tasks, requires a relationship with a
physician to obtain training, counseling and opportunities to improve and
practice their skills.
As for 'Noname EMT', all I can suggest is that you continue your training,
maintain your certification and hope that in the future progress will be made in
solving this problem. As I have said before, this is something I have been
working on for over five years.
Brian Kliesen |
| 8/31 |
The Forest Service was founded on the principle of “the greatest good, for
the greatest number, in the long run”. It is a principle that guides our
management of resources, and the management of our most important resource, the
employees.
Throughout its history, new employees have realized that they work for a
multiple use agency and will be called upon to contribute to whatever task is a
priority. During my career I enjoyed the opportunities to be involved in a wide
range of programs including timber management, recreation, trail
construction/maintenance, wildlife habitat projects, wilderness, range,
minerals, special uses, engineering projects, and of course, working as a
firefighter for 35 years.This diverse experience led to a variety of career
opportunities including stints as a line officer, and eventually a leadership
position in fire.
I was very pleased to see new employees (foresters, engineers, GIS
specialists….the whole gamut of ‘ologists” coming into the office saying “My
boss tells me that ALL employees are expected to have a role in the fire
program…..where can I serve best?” Some became fire crew members, some worked on
engines, some learned how to employ their specialty skills in support positions.
ALL ARE FIREFIGHTERS
Being a firefighter is not limited to those who attend an academy or qualify for
the “primary firefighter” retirement. It does not require someone from OPM to
create a “special” firefighter series number to assign to a PD.
On occasion, we have found employees who have taken the attitude of “I only want
to work in my special area and not be involved in the overall mission of the
agency.” Few of those employees stayed throughout their career. There are other
agencies that offer employment opportunities that do not have the same multiple
resource mission of the FS.
What I guess I am trying to say is that the agency I worked for has a proud
tradition of all employees contributing to the task at hand, with firefighting
being the highest profile of those programs. The firefighting efforts could not
succeed without the contribution of all employees (most members of the “militia”
described here).
The desire to focus on only one aspect of the agency’s mission, and the demands
to be treated as “special” is elitist. It carries the message of “as long as I
get mine” and does not meet the guiding principle of “the greatest good, for the
greatest number, in the long run”.
I fully support efforts to find some formula of PTP to the extent that it would
apply to all “firefighters” (and I refuse to accept the hijacking of that title
by those who want to be a separatist, elitist group). I stand firm in my opinion
that to pursue PTP in a limited application would be detrimental to the agency,
and its employees. I further believe that it would have less support and thus
less chance of being enacted.
Let’s work together for a PTP that applies to all “FIREFIGHTERS”.
OFG
Gizmo,
Your perspective is limited and incorrect. Look at type 2 crews, many of the
staff on engines, folks in logistics, planning and finance.....There are
thousands of "militia" (non-"primary" firefighters) contributing to the
firefighting effort each year. Ya'll need to get out more.
Ab,
This retired one is heading for his camp for a few weeks to get it ready for the
coming hunting season. As always, thanks for providing this forum for the many
years you have done so. |
| 8/31 |
Still Need photos: I'm revising the materials for L-381 Incident
Leadership for MCS.
Got some good photos from some folks. Appreciate it
BUT still need: (1) an engine photo of engine crew putting in a hose lay up
a hill with fire in the background and (2) photo of a progressive hose lay
and (3) running attack wet line off one or several engines
You may send the photos direct to airops@paonia.com.
Much thanks in advance.
Hugh Carson |
| 8/31 |
I am a Logistics Coordinator for North Ops in Redding CA. and have been
tasked with collecting photos of the siege of 08'. This collection I am hoping
will be made into a slide show with music. It will also include maps and what
ever other data I can collect. Here is where I need everyone's help! I ask that
anyone who has photos from the Northern California siege of 2008 send me
whatever you are willing to share. This will I hope be made available to
everyone online for download again I hope. Please email me whatever you are
willing to share at northops08siegephotos@gmail.com
Thank you for your support
Mark Luker
Logistic Coordinator
North Ops |
| 8/31 |
Strider:
Someone at DOJ understands "just culture". See "What Was He Thinking- Beyond
Bias
to Decisionmaking and Judging" March 2007 on this site in Documents Worth
Reading
(this version, not the older version):
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2007/what-was-he-thinking.doc
Old Sawyer. |
| 8/31 |
Strider, Mike Johns is a good guy in the DOJ (check on the Docs Worth
Reading section of
the wildlandfire.com Archives for his contributions for a starter). Guns n Hoses
is a
member of this community who was a firefighter that's now a LEO. No doubt there
are other good lawyers and law enforcers... I think I have a stereotype at work
that
isn't fair to individuals.
As one person who has badmouthed lawyers, as well as the legal and law people
out
there, I'm vowing to restrain myself. Henceforth!
Strider, I do hear your frustration. I agree with you on the FWFSA advice
Mellie |
| 8/31 |
Does the DOJ know no "Just Culture"? Do Forest Service line
officers like Pena know no "Just Culture"? When the attitude toward
FS Firefighters and FIRE is that fire "steals the budget" and FF
have to be made to "toe the line", how likely is it that Just
Culture decisions will be made at the FS level even in terms of
investigations? Line and Fire are incompatible. Let us go!
In the meantime Pena et al need to finish the pay recommendations SOON and
implement. At least one HS supt has an offer from CalFire. Where do we get
replacements for these fire savvy fire managers that know risk assessment?
Offer these people a retention deal!
Everybody, Join the FWFSA!
Strider
|
| 8/31 |
Words are just that, words. However I must say that the Pena letter did outline some interesting ideas. We thank the work groups. We are hopeful the items listed in the Pena letter including a hybrid PTP is implemented soon. A hybrid PTP and a annual retention bonus will go a long way with retaining our best and brightest.
Thanks to all the voices out there, especially that man in Idaho. We would not
have made it to this point without all your strong voices and informative emails. Some call us whiners, I can live with that. However we are fighters. Fighters for what's right and
we are now closer to seeing results.
Next date is Sept 15th for the pay recommendations. Stay the course! Keep the pressure on!
FWFSA is bringing us results people. Do you think we would be getting a letter from a Dep RF considering a hybrid PTP or retention bonus without FWFSA? Your voices, emails and 10 bucks a check will keep things moving in the right direction. Think about it and sign up today.
http://www.fwfsa.org/
Many Americans today are leaving behind the comfort of a home to get out of the way of a Cat-3, maybe Cat-4 hurricane. Some do not have the means to support themselves. If you get the opportunity to head to the southern area, always remember the work we do will impact many people, many people that we never even meet.
Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY - April 1, 2008
|
| 8/31 |
I was wondering,,, if something happened on a fire and the EMT did the best
she or he could, and there were other circumstances so the injured person
didn't get to the hospital and the person died, how might the EMT be blamed?
What would be the grounds? What could even make it something that would be
considered breaking the law or criminal actions? Manslaughter? I'm worried
about this happening on a fire.
Say I do my best. I get blamed anyway?
I had hoped to help by getting my EMT. To be prepared. Now I'm worried that
I might be at risk for getting tied up in legal stuff for up to 7 yr
like Ellreese just for doing the best I can when it's hard to get patients to
hospital during the "golden hour".
Should I let my EMT lapse? or choose to not use it? Do we all need PLI like
the ICs now? Good grief, what's the world coming too???? People want to help.
They want to be prepared when off in the woods in a risky environment. They do
their best and after a death some "Justice Dpt" or "Law"
people decide the EMT is to blame! Even if we're innocent there could be years
of anxiety anguish uncertainty disruption head-tripping
post-traumatic-stress-nightmares just because somebody thought there was
something "criminal" because someone dies and someone or something
has to be held accountable like the world is black and white???
Noname EMT
|
| 8/31 |
I had to say this on the record. With the exception of retired folks who still serve as
firefighters, occasional fire supervisors or fire managers.... there is
LITTLE to NO MILITIA left anymore to fill overhead positions, staff engines,
or go out as firefighters on hand crews. You can add that to the "smoke
and mirrors" games that are played.
I am sick about hearing about the supposed "militia" that exists
somewhere in outerspace that somehow supports the off district fire
program...... It doesn't exist except for a 'handful' of hardy souls who
continue to support and excel within the wildland fire mission of the federal
land management agencies. Primarily, these folks are federal retirees or
contractors who had previous federal service.
The militia has been replaced by contractors and cooperators WHO RIGHTFULLY
stepped up to fill the void that was left over and helped the federal agencies
complete their mandated missions.
Anyone who is worth a grain of salt about caring for the federal wildland fire
program knows the actions of the FWFSA Members, its BOD members, and Casey
will result in good things in the future for all.
Gizmo
|
| 8/31 |
Noname51
You wrote: "How about the AD retirees we are paying HIGH rates for in these
support positions?"
Just where are you getting your information on these "High rates?" You've
got to be kidding me!! Are you open to the facts?
Here's one for you: The difference in a 2-week pay period between a GS-12
Air Operations Branch Director getting true time-and-one-half and an AD AOBD
is $3,000. (During my tenure as Chair of the AD Firefighter Association we
documented these differences in pay and brought them to the attention of
state and federal legislators, as well as federal and state fire agencies.)
That $3000 difference, my dear friend, is a chunk of change, and is exactly
the reason, as well as the failure of the feds to guarantee any sort of
protection from liability, that numerous retirees do not participate any
more.
And if you maintain that currently-employed federal firefighters can meet
the staffing challenges on IMTs and for miscellaneous overhead, then you are
indeed living in a fact-free world.
You really punched my button on that one. Instead of tearing down others
(e.g., state and local participants who are rightfully paid well), I suggest
that your efforts and anger might be better directed toward supporting Casey
and the FWFSA. I do, though I don't derive any direct benefit - my support
is simple: he and FWFSA are right, and they are right on target.
And as to the nearly-defunct AD Firefighter Association, the less said the
better, but I'll say it anyway (grin). The current ADFA Board and their
abject failure to make any significant progress in terms of pay, treatment
of ADs, liability, etc. is abominable
The ADFA got on a real roll when some committed ADs formed the ADFA in 2003.
We did it by putting out factual information; our motto was 'equal pay for
equal work;" and we kept the pressure up on the federal agencies. We didn't
make friends, but we gained respect from not only the AD community but some
of those who pull some weight in the agencies.
However, for the last three years, we've gotten nothing but fluff and
blather from ADFA. And that can be laid directly at the door of the ADFA
Board who, consciously or through laziness and lack of commitment, have
failed to follow up on the initiatives with the legislative branch (Congress
and Governors) that the original Board started.
As I've stated before, my feeling is that the Board members would rather be
liked by the agencies ("the good ole boy" system lives on!!) rather than
getting anything of consequence done. Enough on that. It's a real sore
subject with me.
But the real culprit in all of this are the federal agencies who have been
totally negligent in addressing staffing problems on incidents, problems
which the AD community have and continue to partially solve, though at
comparatively ridiculously low wages
Here's to the unvarnished truth, Noname 51.
Regards,
Hugh Carson
|
| 8/31 |
To Noname 51.
Unless I completely missed the context of your last post about High rates for AD retirees,
you are way off the mark. The average Group/Division level AD position (retiree or not) makes about $22-27/ hr. There is no OT or HP. That is a flat rate billed to the Feds for actual hours of work. No retirement, health, or employer burden like Social Security or Medicare. There is no unemployment burden for the federal government because "they" have passed a law exempting them from having those wages eligible for UI compensation.
Take a GS-9 Sacramento CA. area employee on a fire makes about $30/hr with HP and when OT kicks in another $12 on top of that. Still not | |