DATE

It is nice to have community that helps. Ab.

I'm a newbie at helicopters... and helitack and rappellers. What's the difference between the two? Do they do different things? I thought they both could rappel but some helitack do not, they just get to fires by helicopter? (Other kinds of crews can also get helicopter transport from time to time, can't they?)

I looked on the FS People in Fire page. Helitack and Rappellers are listed differently, but there are not any in California that are listed? Do you have to have handcrew experience to apply for a helitack crew?

I see you have a photo page for Arroyo Grande Flight Crew in CA and they rappel. How is a flight crew different from helitack? What do they do? Looks like they're a Type 1 crew like hotshots. Is a rappel crew a Type 1 crew?

Someone told me CDF has helitack crews and each crew goes with an assigned helicopter. Is that true of all helitack crews, like Eva's crew was Helitack 404 and the helicopter was H404? Seems like the AG crew did not have the helicopter name, but a location and the big helicopter was not called Arroyo Grande.

Are there only 3 types of helicopters? 1, biggest; 2 medium; 3 smallest? What size helicopters carry helitack? Type 2s or 1s? (Was helicopter Arroyo Grande a Type 1 helicopter? Does the agency own the helicopter if it's married with the crew? Do they contract with some helicopter for a season to carry a crew to fires or stick with them all season?

I read a bunch of the names ff are called (feel the ribbing) on the Funny Terms page. I heard "hot rope" at some time and it's not there, so maybe it's not one of the humerous terms. Does anyone know what that means?

Thanks for any help. So much stuff to figure out, so little time...

JJ

Perhaps you are a rappeller and if so you already know the answer is and always will be human error. Equipment used
back in the beginning with no QA checks being done was far more subject to failure than the current equipment. The
program is solid, but like many programs that the "Agencies" have used in the past, it has grown; when it grows new
players get involved. R5 for years was allowing first year helitack crewmembers to concurrently learn helitack and
become a rappeller in the same season (too much for some individuals in M.H.O).

You cannot throw everything away every time there is an accident. If this is he new model then we should just keep all
the aircraft parked and we can rest assured that we will be 100% safe. If the rappel op is shut down even for the year,
all I can say is "be safe jumpers because you will be busier".

Kneejerked

“Tactical catastrophes are never the outcome of a single poor decision.
Small compromises incrementally close off options until a commander
is forced into actions he would never choose freely.” Nathaniel Flick

I added it. Thank you.
For those that might not know, there is a group of firefighter risk managers that have been pursuing and honing alternatives for lessons learned (for example: from AAR to SAI, especially the APA) and pushing Just Culture for the last 5 years. Hats off to them. They are among FIRE's true heroes in their attempts to change the culture in the spite of the cloud of legal mess firefighters live under. Ab.

Ab, I asked for some feedback on these questions and received the following. Any replies to this please contact Mike Apicello / with the FS Branch of Risk Management, Human Performance and Development - he is the FS NIFC PAO and I'm sure he will get questions to the appropriate person. Mellie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jon,

Now that I know you're a follower of They Said, I would like to pose a few questions in regards to rappel
standardization and your previous post.

1) It is my understanding that the reason we would reduce our rappel capability this season is due to unsafe
equipment. If that is the case, why would we consider using our current unsafe equipment to rappel at all
this year?

The Forest Service puts all of its aerial delivery firefighter equipment and deployment systems through arduous testing procedures in order to provide the safe equipment for its users. The safety of our aerial delivered firefighters is paramount. For example: Sky genies are X-rayed for any cracks or faults; frayed ropes or let-down lines that develop twists or don't spool properly are culled and replaced. Replacement parachutes when acquired from manufacturers are inspected by master riggers many times before they are ever jumped. And perhaps the best example has been the evolution of the fire shelter over the past decade. Safety check must be continuous and ongoing and every firefighter has the right and also the responsibility to check, inspect, and report equipment deficiencies in order to mitigate unwarranted risks.

2) If we are concerned about safety records, why is the Bell medium the apparent platform of choice? A
quick look at history shows that the Bell medium (and other platforms that the rappellers leave the ground
without being hooked in) have a recurring incidence of rappellers going to the skid without being hooked in.

Aerially delivered firefighters are taught to maintain a constant, and widely focused situational awareness about where they are when situated in aircraft and also how to maneuver in the various types of platforms they are trained and qualified to use. Rappellers, Helitack and Smokejumpers are trained up to mission standards for each different platform that might deliver them to an incident. Practice and Proficiency flights are mandatory to keep skill levels high and performance at peak levels without compromising safety. The issue here is maintaining the ability to stay focused on equipment during equipment checks, while keeping situational awareness keen on all the procedures involved while exiting an aircraft.

3) I hear rumors of a number medium helicopters being dedicated as rappel ships; no bucket, no crew
transport. Does this really sound like an efficient use of aircraft?

The Forest Service has no intention to do away with the multiple use capabilities of the aircraft platforms they use for rappel ships. If rappellers are used on a fire, the same platform can be used to bring in other equipment and support the incident as needed.

4) You stated that the development of new equipment has been progressing rapidly. Can you give us an
update? There has been no new information in a year on the work at MTDC. Can we expect a safe and
functional product prior to the end of FY12? Last word was that MTDC was funded for the project until
then.

Research, development, and testing of new types of equipment is a mission of MTDC. Much emphasis and time is spent looking at a multitude of products, and where possible, adopting the best qualities from multiple types of equipment to develop the safest tools possible. The goal is to build out the "risk factors" to insure the most efficient and safest equipment is developed. These processes take time. As new equipment becomes available MTDC will often issue bulletins, tech-tips, directions, guidelines and specialized reports when it comes to new or replacement types of equipment.

I thank you for prompt clarification of these issues.

-Still Skeptical

I'm happy to copy and paste or forward any further questions to Apicello or send them to him yourself. Ab.

From Lea Schweitzer:

Mike Schweitzer Memorial Challenge (2738 K doc file)

Some text:

Ab,

I almost hate to ask this question...

Is there a new policy in place by the Forest Service in Region 5 or Nationally not to release or share Serious Accident Investigations? The National Park Service released the Andy Palmer SAI (accident '08) but not the FS. No one has seen the Packer / Panther Fatality Serious Accident Investigation Report (accident '08). The NTSB released the Iron 44 Report (accident '08), as it was their jurisdiction. Now it's clear there's a Draft Report on the rappel accident ('09) that researchers were given. It seems a bit bass-ackward that the research article was released even before a factual accident investigation report. Don't get me wrong, the article is very good in my estimation and explains the likely human factors causes, but why release it before the investigation's release? Is the article supposed to take the place of the investigation's release?

AB - I am not sure but since the Packer fatality happened on Forest Service land it may be in the hands of the Accident Review Board. They will be the group that determines what needs to be done to rectify or modify any practices, policies or procedures surrounding this type of event in the future. Because these are serious and somewhat rare incidents - they are given time to vet solutions that can work. They do not take these fatalities lightly and the goal is if we can not prevent them - then to determine steps needed in the system that may be barriers or better practices to better react to these very sad and traumatic, somewhat rarer then usual events from occurring in the future - at least that is my take.

Ab, if there is a shift in FS policy, shouldn't theysaid also have a shift?

Hmmm - good question for the editors of Theysaid, (a balanced thinker here?)

If there is not a timely lessons learned discussion because the facts are being withheld or severely delayed or requiring FOIA, I think you should allow us to discuss what we think might be lessons learned. There are critical lessons to be learned from most things that go wrong. How do we ever do better if we can't talk about what was planned, what happened and how to do it better?  

One thing I do know is that in a Serious Accident Review, it can take up to 45 days to compile the final report which in other accident investigations has been a critical factor.  I know that people want  immediate answers after bad incidents occur; unfortunately it takes time to put the pieces together and unfortunately its also during the post trauma period when emotions are the highest, people grieve, and the pains are many and heavy.  However there are other tools out there for finding the lessons in mishaps and close calls that could also be  highly traumatic.  I describe two organizational learning tools below:

First off I certainly agree with McCleod's train of thought.  One thing that the forest service accomplished was they developed a Branch of Risk Management  to help foster along the fire suppression Doctrine discussed during the Pulaski Conference in 2005 as one of their primary missions. Little do people realize that the key to having SAFE outcomes is in the skilled ability to manage, interpret and mitigate risk; hence Risk Management.  Right now - to answer the question above regarding how can we learn from things that go wrong. -- In the Branch of Risk Management for the Forest Service there are both a ground Operations Risk Management Council and an Aviation Risk Management council - there is also a lot of development going on with organizational learning that is finally coming to fruition out of the foundational principles associated with the early thinking about Forest Service Wildland Fire suppression Doctrine.

Two tools that have already been used and we are finding good results from are the called the FLA and the APA - the "Facilitated Learning Analysis", and the "Accident Prevention Analysis".  These tools were first  rolled out under the moniker of  Peer Reviews - with the key to their success dependent  on a few key items:  the ability for a unit to agree to take a close look at an event that occurred on their unit, and the unit's agreement to "own" the incident and the derived lessons learned - all  for the sake of the greater good so others can learn from it.  The type of mishaps and close calls are usually events that can occur anywhere, anytime to fire practitioners.  And quite often they involve common practices that people do every day and because they may have never been addressed or looked  at from a learning perspective, unknowingly slip away from corporate memory or even local unit memory until they happen to a degree people are affected.  These are the moments of yin and yang where great learning opportunities exist and are recognized as such.    In a truly progressive unit, district, Forest, interagency office etc - there first has to be an agreement to let the people involved "tell their story" and without fear of reprisal - It's an opportunity for those involved to truly explain not only what they saw, but what they felt, did or did not do,  and it also allows for them to speak out about what they were thinking at the time - its a very introspective, honest and a real process.  Almost like the type of "reality checks" people take when they know they need to air, vent, share, counsel etc for others to become aware.  And it takes balls to be brave enough to do it.  The key though about implementation and changing to a learning culture is having the passion for safety to be open and honest.  It is the true manifestation of what one person can learn from their mistake and be brave enough to admit it.  Of course this also applies to crews, and any number of people involved in these mishaps, accidents and close calls.  How are we to become a true learning culture - one that learns from its mistakes - if we do not talk about them? And then share the lessons learned.  With an APA or FLA - these are key objectives, with the timely delivery of the lesson made available to the collective family of practitioners and to the Leadership of the practitioners.  To me, it encompasses shared learning and shared responsibility.  

We have had so many brave people participate in a growing number of FLAs and APAs and now it is growing to the point where every leader in the agency should know about these organizational learning tools and be able to distinguish when to use them.  We have had many wise leaders invite the process onto their units.  In fact - there are many outside industries that do this under the concept of a Just and Learning Culture.  And I am sure as we continue our evolution into  high reliability organizing, we will also help improve morale as well as cognitive communication.  We see these type of tools used in high-risk professions such as medicine, military ops, space exploration and other professions.  These tools fit right in with organization and culture change and the implementation of  Doctrine empowerment.  In fact, any reason not to use them begs the question: WHY WOULD AN ORGANIZATION NOT WANT TO LEARN FROM ITS MISTAKES WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY IS THERE TO DO SO WITHOUT ALLOWING "HARM" TO OTHERS and bringing greater knowledge to the future?  That's my personal take and I think it is the right way to go if we are going to become even better at what we already do so well - and oftentimes just take for granted - until tragedy occurs.  

Let me say again, I have no inside knowledge of anything on report release timing, but am commenting here on appearances that might be reality.

As far as bad FS morale, I have not seen anyone mention that morale took a real beating and set a powerful downward trajectory when the FS decided to indict employees on the Cramer Fire that were simply doing their jobs as best they could given job overload, etc. I'd say half to 2/3 of Type 3 ICs not renewing their redcards sheds some light on declining morale ya think?

THIS STATEMENT IS RIGHT ON AND IT NEEDS TO BE HEARD!

Many people think that work overload, budget, and a number of things are affecting morale- and I have to agree - but WE AS A FIRE COMMUNITY CAN NOT FORGET WHAT THIS DID TO BOOTS ON THE GROUND and to people who care even at higher levels. Did this hurt morale - you bet it did - and the ICT 3 issue is just one fallout. -- Thanks for the time to air out. My English is not that good as I am a member of the foreign legion. Lest I forget - every accident we prevent is a good thing!

- ForkintheTrail.

Good afternoon,

I'm looking for 2 studies regarding aviation. After hours of surfing the web as well as contacting the
FS Library, I have come up empty handed.

The studies are:

• USDA Forest Service (1992) National study of type 1 and 2 helicopters
  to support large fire suppression; Final Report. USDA Forest Service.
  (Washington, DC)
• as well as
  the 1991 National Shared Forces Task Force Report (USDA).

Any information email <snip>

Thanks-

Ward L. Hiesterman
Assistant Manager- National Helicopter
Gallatin National Forest Rappel Crew

Rapid City Man Sentenced for Mailing Fraudulent Firefighter Documents

DOJ Webpage has the sentencing info.

Stanley

Good evening AB and all.

I've been away from the forum for a few days and tonight while the rain is falling horizontally here in Nor-Cal I was catching up.
I'm very saddened to hear about the passing of NMAIRBEAR. I enjoyed the mans insight and wisdom. Wildlandfire.com has
lost a great contributor. I will miss him.

danfromord

Hey Ab:

I'm hearing rumors that Federal Fire Retirees may be going back to their last GS-wage for the upcoming fire season.
Has anyone heard about this and is there anywhere to find out more? Is this the Retiree Annuitant Program?

Roamy360

Dear Ab and All:

I was honored to get a call from Tim Stubbs' sister Terri this evening. We had a nice long chat. There was a
recent post about where to send cards, donations etc., but according to her no one will be living at the Texas
address listed in the post.

She suggested that letters/notes to Tim's kids Jesse & Amanda could be sent in her care to:

Terri Christofk Stubbs
3700 Trieste Dr.
Carlsbad, CA 92010

She also provided her phone number so if someone wants that, please contact me.

Thanks,

Casey

From a lawyer friend, there is some discretion in whether or not redactions are necessary.

The Privacy Act and FIOA laws were the origin of redactions. First one was the 1974 act of congress.
The first redactions I know of were present to a small degree in the South Canyon Report (1994 South
Canyon Incident). There are some good links at the bottom of wilipedia page below on additional
amendments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy_Act_of_1974

GA Peach

Jon,

Now that I know you're a follower of They Said, I would like to pose a few questions in regards to rappel
standardization and your previous post.

1) It is my understanding that the reason we would reduce our rappel capability this season is due to unsafe
equipment. If that is the case, why would we consider using our current unsafe equipment to rappel at all
this year?

2) If we are concerned about safety records, why is the Bell medium the apparent platform of choice? A
quick look at history shows that the Bell medium (and other platforms that the rappellers leave the ground
without being hooked in) have a recurring incidence of rappellers going to the skid without being hooked in.

3) I hear rumors of a number medium helicopters being dedicated as rappel ships; no bucket, no crew
transport. Does this really sound like an efficient use of aircraft?

4) You stated that the development of new equipment has been progressing rapidly. Can you give us an
update? There has been no new information in a year on the work at MTDC. Can we expect a safe and
functional product prior to the end of FY12? Last word was that MTDC was funded for the project until
then.

I thank you for prompt clarification of these issues.

-Still Skeptical

Ab's,

I just have a simple post. We all owe Michelle Reugebrink - R5 Safety & Occupational Health Specialist a big
thank you for her support to the Fire Community. She is a true leader and comes to work everyday and gives it everything
she's got. What more can you ask for. She does so much in front of and behind the scenes for all. She has been locally,
regionally and nationally recognized as a true leader for her work in Health and Safety Management.

Thank you Michelle

ms

I agree 100%. Ab.

I would like to let everyone know that John Thomas better known as JT has elected to hang up his Whites after 32 years of fighting fire. JT leaves as the Deputy Chief on the Angeles N.F. He spent his entire career on the Angeles with the very large part of that on the Saugus District (later named the Santa Clara/Mojave Rivers) as a Captain and Superintendent for the Texas Canyon Hot Shots. He subsequently moved into management in 2002 as Battalion Chief and then a stint as the Angeles Fuels Office before becoming Deputy. JT is an excellent leader locally and nationally as well as an outstanding role model for young firefighters.

The celebration of his career will take place March 13, 2010 at the Eliopulos Pavilion located at the Antelope Valley Fairgrounds in Lancaster. Time is 1800-2330 hrs. Cost is $50.00 per head which covers dinner, gift and expenses, a cash bar will be available. Any proceeds over the cost of the event will be donated to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. For those from out of town, a group rate has been established at the Hampton Inn in Lancaster under John Thomas Retirement.

Those that are interested in attending please make reservations by February 22, 2010 through either Kenny Ellyson or Rodney Guillery at fs.fed.us, payment by check is requested prior to February 26.

Hope you all join in the festivities and make sure you bring a good story about JT with you to send him off to a well deserved retirement.

Pena did make a typo. The date is June 1, 2010.

Jim Peña
Deputy Regional Forester
Pacific Southwest Region
707-562-9000
jpena@fs.fed.us

Ab,

I almost hate to ask this question...

Is there a new policy in place by the Forest Service in Region 5 or Nationally not to release or share Serious Accident Investigations? The National Park Service released the Andy Palmer SAI (accident '08) but not the FS. No one has seen the Packer / Panther Fatality Serious Accident Investigation Report (accident '08). The NTSB released the Iron 44 Report (accident '08), as it was their jurisdiction. Now it's clear there's a Draft Report on the rappel accident ('09) that researchers were given. It seems a bit bass-ackward that the research article was released even before a factual accident investigation report. Don't get me wrong, the article is very good in my estimation and explains the likely human factors causes, but why release it before the investigation's release? Is the article supposed to take the place of the investigation's release?

Ab, if there is a shift in FS policy, shouldn't theysaid also have a shift? If there is not a timely lessons learned discussion because the facts are being withheld or severely delayed or requiring FOIA, I think you should allow us to discuss what we think might be lessons learned. There are critical lessons to be learned from most things that go wrong. How do we ever do better if we can't talk about what was planned, what happened and how to do it better?

Let me say again, I have no inside knowledge of anything on report release timing, but am commenting here on appearances that might be reality.

As far as bad FS morale, I have not seen anyone mention that morale took a real beating and set a powerful downward trajectory when the FS decided to indict employees on the Cramer Fire that were simply doing their jobs as best they could given job overload, etc. I'd say half to 2/3 of Type 3 ICs not renewing their redcards sheds some light on declining morale ya think?

mcleod

Fair question. I guess we'll have to evaluate. Does anyone know if the Panther Fatality Report is completed and what is the timeline for release? Ab.

AB,

I found the following on the NPS Morning Report this morning. It gives some information on how to contact
the family. May Tim find smooth air on his journey and Gods speed.

Craig

Intermountain Region
Passing Of Tim Stubbs

It is with deep sadness that we announce the passing of Tim Stubbs, former fire management officer for Carlsbad Caverns and Guadalupe Mountains National Park.

Tim passed away due to natural causes in Albuquerque, New Mexico, on January 28th. A private memorial service will be held for Tim at his mother's home in California.

Tim began his permanent NPS career in March 1990. He retired as the FMO in February 2003. In addition to being the fire management officer, Tim was a fire behavior analyst, long term fire analyst, and an air tactical group supervisor. He was a wildland firefighter icon and staunch advocate for firefighter safety.

Tim's family has asked that in lieu of flowers, please address any cards and/or donations to his children, Jesse and Amanda Stubbs. Please send your cards and/or donations to the attention of: <snip, please see a better address in post from Casey on 2/4>.
[Submitted by John Lujan, john_lujan@ nospam nps.gov]

Date: February 3, 2010
Subject: 2010 Spring Centralized Fire Hiring - Grades 06 through 10   
To: Forest Supervisors and Directors

The first of three planned centralized fire-hire sessions for 2010 is scheduled for this Spring.  The purpose of this letter is to provide dates and actions required to make this a successful event.
 
Vacant positions, grades 06 through 10, will be available for filling from referral lists generated from the open-and-continuous announcements (OCRs) listed in Enclosure 1.  All positions vacated as a result of the incumbent promoting during the hiring round (referred to as a backfill) will also be available for filling. The timeline for the hiring process is as follows:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

March 08: Last day applicants may apply to OCRs for the Spring fire hire.  Applicants are encouraged to apply early and to not wait until the last day to avoid incomplete applications or errors that could occur.  Applicants must also apply or re-certify current profiles within 60 days before this deadline, or AVUE will not refer them on a referral list.
 
March 09: Referral lists generated by Human Resources (HR).
 
March 10 – April 02: HR will work on applicant qualifications, veteran preference, and printing applications for fire subject-matter experts (SMEs).
 
April 05 – April 16: Fire SMEs evaluate and document applications for strengths and weakness, and make and document supervisor reference calls.
 
April 19 – April 30: Recommendations, selections and offers made, and personnel actions processed.
 
May 23: Earliest effective start date for new hires.  Extended dates may be required for selections that include transfer of station or drug-testing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is critical this information be shared with your managers, supervisors, and employees.

Applicants need to understand that when they accept a position, declining at a later date may not be an option; their vacated position will immediately be considered for backfill.

Forests will be asked to have individuals available to assist as subject-matter specialists during the April 5-16, 2010, timeframe. In addition, each Forest with vacancies will be expected to have at least one recommending official available at McClellan during the weeks of April 19-30, 2010. The recommending official should have a delegation of authority from the Forest Supervisor outlining their responsibilities and authority during the hiring session. Forests will be contacted to provide the names of individuals assisting in these processes.

Each Forest should review their fire vacancies’ SF-52s for accuracy. They are listed on the Region 5 SF-52 Tracker home page. The report is called “Recruit & Fill – Fire O&C Summary,” which is listed on the left-hand side under the section entitled “REPORTS.” Units should also verify that the Region 5 Centralized Permanent Fire Positions “Vacancy Posting” report correctly lists all current vacancies and has an approved SF-52 for the applicable position included in the “Recruit & Fill – Fire O&C Summary” report. The “Vacancy Posting” report is located on the Jobs web page at www.fs.fed.us/fsjobs/openings, by selecting the “Region 5 Centralized Permanent Fire Positions” link on that page.

It is critical these reports be verified, especially looking at AVUE city and duty station locations to ensure that correct locations are used in generating referral lists and placing hires into the correct location. This validation should be completed by Friday, March 5, 2010.

I request that each of you work with your managers/supervisors, Civil Rights Officers, and recruiters to ensure that we document and complete outreach and recruitment for all Fire OCRs in Enclosure 1. It is critical that you inform employees who are interested in Fire positions to apply for positions, grades 06 through 10, by the March 8, 2010, deadline. In accordance with our backfill procedures and new vacancies occurring between now and the close of the generated referral lists, interested employees should apply to all positions and locations of interest to them, even if the position is currently filled. Again, your assistance in ensuring that supervisors and employees are fully aware of these timelines is appreciated.

Questions for Fire management officials should be directed to Gary Biehl, Assistant Director, Strategic Services, at gbiehl@ nospam fs.fed.etc or at (209) 532-3671, extension 315. Questions for Human Resources officials should be directed to Robin Irvine at rlirvine@ nospam fs.fed.etc or at (530) 841-4481.

/s/ Angela V. Coleman (for)
RANDY MOORE
Regional Forester

Enclosure (includes the rest of the info)

cc: Gary Biehl, Robin L Irvine, FCROs, R5 Recruiters, Elizabeth Wright

www.fs.fed.us/fire/safety/wct/wct_index.html

Strider

Dear Ab & All:

Regarding Tim's passing, I received a call this afternoon from the DC office of his congressional representative from
New Mexico interested in doing something to remember Tim such as a letter to the family etc., but they have no
contact information for family or who would know of such things.

If anyone knows I'd be delighted to pass along the information to the office. Folks can always contact me at
cjudd@fwfsa.org  or 208-775-4577.

Thanks,

Casey

Casey, from what I've heard there's a small family memorial service at his mom's in socal this weekend. We have a request for info to several people. Someone is forwarding one message this evening when he's back at his computer. I'll let you know what I learn. Ab.

Doug Campbell is offering an e-version of his

Campbell Prediction System Language: Glossary of Terms

It's normally for sale on his website, but he says he wants it offered free to theysaiders, to all interested in fire behavior.

The file is large, 6,519 K. No breaking fires right now, so our server should be able to handle download traffic.

Here's to Tim Stubbs!

Ab.

Download

I laud the practicality, the insights, and the guts you have to take an issue - determine its relevancy - and with fair minded oversight - share your concerns for the manner in which information is conveyed. Specifically, I think that the message regarding the golden hour and knowing when and how to pull triggers to get harmed firefighters out of further harm's way was brought very positively suggesting discussion with the M.D. regarding his thoughts of capabilities that can be taken when responders are faced with life or death situations; especially in dealing with remote incidents. Although I am not privy to any of the conversation that must have occurred - I do see the tremendous potential in discussing and sharing ideas with knowledgeable people whose professional fortes can cross disciplines and subsequently assist fire agencies with their mission of preventing, dealing with, and implementing the concept of "allow no harm, do no harm." Every first responder, Hot shot, jumper, engine crew - ALL who work firefighting should be as familiar with the "no harm" doctrine as they are with fire suppression doctrine in firefighting operations.

So without a bunch of big, esoteric, bureaucratic words - there are many lessons to be learned - if people are allowed to freely communicate what they saw, what they did or did not do, what they thought and how they perceived the event, or incident. Learning comes from listening. Learning also occurs with good attitudes. Mindful and caring people should never be "put on the block" for trying to do the right thing. No matter the unintended, or "unwilled outcome", we all are aware that even the worst things happen in our line of work. Some of these we can see and can explain, and some we just don't see and try to figure out why; and some just happen - because of timing in the universal matrices of nature. I don't mean to sound crude, but acceptance is always better than denial when it comes to learning and telling the truth.

Much like Jack Thomas used to say about leadership: "Obey the law and Tell the Truth" - what he meant was simply - do the right thing. I believe that in today's firefighting culture there is a high awareness of what people are expected to do in their jobs. Where many problems arise because of human factors - such as fatigue and loss of attentive awareness - all too often greater harm can be done when sense of the bigger picture gets missed, or swallowed up in the vortex of lost situational awareness. However, this may also be the time when no one can sense reality from the unexpected. We must always remember that people are not infallible all the time; however the systems that they work in, do. Without leadership, many important things get overlooked and all too often the boots on the ground get stepped on with blame - and consequently both the system and the people disconnect in the fray. That's why communications is so important if a culture really wants to learn and better itself.

What I am encouraged to think is that a newer, greater effort is being placed on empowering firefighters and boots on the ground to vocalize alone with leadership their sensing of situations that don't feel right. I think that we all try to make systems we are not even aware of work. We must understand what dealing with and managing risk is all about. I believe that intuitive thinking needs to be part and parcel to situational attentiveness in every firefighter, no mater their degree of experience - People need to be listened to, and more importantly - be allowed to openly address what they intuitively feel. Much like teaching a young child to cross the street, intuitive learning is alive and well and more often than not goes unnoticed - or unheard when faced with serious feelings of insecurity and unknowing. Fortunately by nature, most people think instinctively every day. In a lighter analogy, it's one of the first thing school children are taught by their parents or guardians when learning how to cross street. "Look both ways, walk, don't run, and cross where it is appropriate - boom - lessons learned. Kind of like "look up, look down, look around" when operating in the fire environment; only in these cases we know there are multiple risks and we attempt to ingrain situational attentiveness as a learned process as well.

Agency Doctrine has been talked about for awhile now. Many people still have difficulty explaining it. It's almost an esoteric concept, including many with trayfuls of slides of trays noting their experience. However, what I do see is happening is a slow evolution of people speaking out and joining in what is a foundational principle of Doctrine - and that is sharing questions, getting answers, and looking out beyond the next ridge while focusing on spot fires. I also see people making decisions about risk. A good example is the number of qualified ICT3s that threw in their quals because the bigger "risk" to families and loved one was more important; and especially if their comfort in overseeing other people's lives makes or made them uncomfortable, especially with decisions. I believe we will solve morale problems, reduce exposures, and make better decisions when agencies allow leaders to follow their mindsets, intuition and guts.

Regarding the Golden Hour - this is a time where life or death is in the balance - not only of those trying to do the right thing - but also in the mind of the injured. Accidents do happen and for some, there will always be victims and for some survivors. However, let us not ignore the golden opportunity to listen to others. It's fundamentally right that a system of safety allow for this to occur.

So thank you Theysaid for the job you do. Keep kicking tires.

ForkintheTrail.

making the BLM rounds

2011 fuels funding for all DOI and FS would be cut by 21% in President
budget. "Interesting" is not the word I would choose to describe 2011
planning for PTA.

Thomas V. Murphy
BLM - Medford District Fire Mgt. Officer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
more in the round-robin 2/2:

OMB made a significant reduction in our DOI fuels budget, the department
has been negotiations for awhile with OMB. Who can anticipate this large of
reduction? Of course, it needs to go through Congress until we receive our
true allocations. It going to be interesting on how we decide to plan PTA.

Jane E. Arteaga
Detail- Community Protection Specialist
National Interagency Fire Center BLM FA-600
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
more in the round-robin 2/2:

I was just looking at this document and found that the 2010 budget will be
reduced by 44 million for 2011. It is on page 79. Have we anticipated
this? Or should we not be worried?

www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2011/assets/trs.pdf (869 K pdf file)

Kato Howard
State Fuels Management Specialist
Alaska Fire Service

• This budget will help rural communities create prosperity so they are self-sustaining, economically thriving, and growing in population. We have already taken important steps in this effort. With help from the Recovery Act, we supported farmers and ranchers and helped rural businesses create jobs. We made investments in broadband, renewable energy, hospitals, water and waste water systems, and other critical infrastructure that will serve as a lasting foundation to ensure the long-term economic health of families in Rural America. This budget includes almost $26 billion to build on that down payment and focuses on new opportunities presented by producing renewable energy, developing local and regional food systems, capitalizing on environmental markets and generating green jobs through recreation and natural resource conservation.
• This budget promotes the production of food, feed, fiber, and fuel, for the domestic and export market, as we work to strengthen the agricultural economy for farmers and ranchers. America’s farmers and ranchers are the most productive and efficient in the world, and this budget maintains the policies that help maintain our nation’s food security. The budget increases our funding for export promotion as part of President Obama’s National Export Initiative and provides more support than ever before for competitive research.
• We will ensure that all of America’s children have access to safe, nutritious, and balanced meals. The budget fully funds the expected requirements for the Department’s three major nutrition assistance programs and proposes $10 billion over 10 years to strengthen the Child Nutrition and WIC programs. It also invests over $1 billion for efforts to reduce foodborne illnesses from USDA-inspected food products.
• We will ensure our national forests and private working lands are conserved, restored, and made more resilient to climate change, while enhancing our water resources. This budget will enroll more than 300 million acres into Farm Bill conservation programs, an increase of 10% over 2010. It will strategically target high priority watersheds for restoration and conservation. And it focuses efforts on forest restoration and hazardous fuels reduction where they will offer job-creation opportunities and reduce the chance of catastrophic wildfires.

You can read about the budget in more detail HERE.

There is no doubt that these tough times call for shared sacrifice. The American people have tightened their belts and we have done so as well. We made tough decisions, but this budget reflects our values, and common sense solutions to the problems we face. It makes critical investments in the American people and in the agricultural economy to set us on a path to prosperity as we move forward in the 21st century.

Thanks so much all that you contribute to the Department,

Secretary Vilsack

Attached is a document recently published that speaks to human factors that affect situational and visual awareness.
I believe it is important enough to ask you to read and discuss it with one another. I would ask you to raise awareness
of the contributions to and pitfalls of change blindness to operational activities. Challenge each other. Take nothing for
granted. Stay sharp.
Thanks,
-ed-

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2010/safe/rappel-accident-hp.doc

Dear Abercrombie:

Dr. Douglas Fox and I of Nine Points South Technical Pty. Ltd. are tasked to develop a Smoke Management Research Plan for the Joint Fire Sciences Program (JFSP). The purpose of the plan is to help guide funding for wildland fire/forest fire smoke research for the next five to eight years by the United States Department of Interior and Department of Agriculture's JFSP.

We have developed a questionnaire hoping to obtain input from a wide variety of different stakeholders on the JFSP Smoke Science Plan. First, may we ask you to take the survey? It only takes about 10 minutes to complete. Second, would you be able to help us obtain input from others you work with in the air quality and fire research community?

The link is: www.surveymonkey.com/s/ZTH5BQS

We encourage people to share this link with whomever they think might like to have input. So anyone who would like to share the link with somebody they know is most welcome to do so.

Thank you very much,

Allen R. Riebau, PhD.
Nine Points South Technical Pty. Ltd

I ran into some Smith River HS this morning at breakfast and asked if they were in town for training.
"Yes."
"Leadership class?" I asked.
"No, Red  Lights and Sirens training," they answered.

My husband who knows little about this issue (except for the BS lights and sirens button on my desk).
<giggle> asked,
"Training? Don't you just push a button in your vehicle after making sure that it's turned on?" <hahahaha>

So it appears that R5 will continue to have red lights and sirens at least for now, or at least on our forest.

Hmmmmm, bet that ate into some travel allotment.... Smith River NRA is up by the Oregon border, an hour
to an hour and a half driving time.

Regardless, I'm glad to see R5 will continue using red lights and sirens. Good for Chief Forester Randy Moore.

Mellie

Pyro

If there was a new law passed, I am unaware of it. I raised this question with the Chief and the National Fire
Director in 2004, and was told it was due to an opinion that the Privacy Act required the redaction. I didn't
buy that then, and I don't buy that now. The redactions are detrimental to understanding the chain of events;
they are an attempt to conceal historical facts; and they are ludicrous in that it is (and should be) public
knowledge as to the identity of certain figures eg. "The district ranger (redacted) was attending a meeting".

Neither person could tell me why previous reports did not violate the Privacy Act.

OFG

Thanks OFG. Ab.

Ab.

Ab.

Attached is the latest regarding exams and lists.
CAL FIRE Exam info (77 K pdf file)

normbc9

I recently received a list of recruitment announcements for NV Division of Forestry fire jobs.
Interested applicants need to go to the NDOP job search page:

https://nvapps.state.nv.us/NEATS/Recruiting/ViewJobsHome.aep and search within it.

These NDF recruitments are open for varying lengths of time; if interested, check 'em out for details.

Good Luck, and Be Safe.

PyroPyro

Tim will be missed from this world on numerous fronts, but his passion for firefighting safety and care of firefighters in
the trenches will be missed most of all. I never fought fire with Tim but I have had the great privilege to teach S-490
with Tim on numerous occasions in the late nineties and into the last decade. It is ironic and very sad that Tim passed
the very week that many who had known and were brought into our cadre by Tim were gathered in Las Cruces
teaching a 490 class.

Vaya con dios mi amigo.

John Holcomb

WOW maybe the federal side could aquire some of these new aircraft???

Signed, Look Ahead!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

making the rounds:

OV-10X Design photo

Also Cal Fire has just acquired three OV-10D, with four bladed props on 1040 hp turbines.
They are going to build them up as spares and relief aircraft when multiple fires hit statewide.
Plus they received 19 30' seatrains full of new spare OV-10 A-D parts, wheels and tires.

OV-10D w/3 blade prop

OV-10D
General characteristics
Crew: 2
Length: 44 ft 0 in (13.41 m)
Wingspan: 40 ft 0 in (12.19 m)
Height: 15 ft 2 in (4.62 m)
Wing area: 290.95 ft² (27.03 m²)
Empty weight: 6,893 lb (3,127 kg)
Loaded weight: 9,908 lb (4,494 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 14,444 lb (6,552 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Garrett T76-G-420/421 turboprop, 1,040 hp (775.5 kW)
each
Tailplane Span 14 ft, 7 in (4.45 m)

Performance
Maximum speed: 298 mph (479 km/h)
Range: 1,382 mi (2,224 km)
Service ceiling: 30,000 ft (9,159 m)

Will the OV-10 ride again? from www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/01/will-the-ov-10-ride-again.html

fair use disclaimer

DH, fire marshall
Layton City Fire Department, UT

Subject: FY 2010 Firefighter Retention Allowance

2010 Retention Bonus Extension

Forest Supervisors and Directors,
I want to let you know that Randy approved an one-year extension for the 10% retention allowance for GS-5 thru 8 firefighters region-wide. The extension will be effective in March, with no break in coverage, for one more year. We will be noticing employees this week. Affected employees will receive individual letters informing them of this decision.

The evaluation of the first year was inconclusive in the effectiveness of the bonus. Other factors that may have affected the retention outcome are the change we made in back-fill hiring in our fire hiring, the overall economy, and the increase in tour. Therefore, we decided to extend it to see if we can detect a direct effect and have time to complete a new supplemental pay proposal. We are on track to have the supplemental pay proposal drafted for review by June 1, 2020.

Thanks, Jim (Peña)

Attached are 4 documents that we believe update everyone on the current status and address the questions asked by (1) Rachael Taylor, Senate Approps. Committee and (2) OMB - John Pasquintino. The papers reflect specific actions and decisions and timeframes that R5 is committed to. I am also copying WO-FAM leadership with these documents. We did not attempt to edit the WO Paper that went to OMB that was annotated by John P. Our belief is that this briefing paper and attachments provide the context and support the actions being taken.

1. Updated Briefing Paper with summary table (182 K doc file) of the Congressional funding and Staffing (Planned, Current and Vacant Temporary and permanent Positions:

2. Attachment 1a (182 K xls file) -- Firefighter Attrition and Resignation Data from 1997-2009 (xcel spreadsheet file)

3. Attachment 1 (522 K pdf file) - R5 Regional Forester Approval of Firefighter Retention Bonuses (2009 and 2010) with attached attrition, resignation, and exit interview information on "What would it take for you to stay or return?".

4. Attachment 2 (522 K pdf file) -- Assessment of Alternatives for Modifying or Developing a new Wildland Fire Technician Series

John

The Groundpig learned that fire still burns uphill on the 48. Back at Little-T around 1970’s.

I still hate that little wheel!!!

GP

The Regional Safety does not know anything about Medical evacuation and response plans, nor does he
do anything but pass his work on to others, in my opinion. (Retirement time...) I think it would be good
to get Andy Palmer's dad who is a MD to share his thoughts. When I spoke with him over several days
last year he had some pretty clear, logical medical guidelines for rapidly dealing with emergencies on the
line.

We need the best and brightest and most motivated individuals heading this up.

Mellie

Thanks Doug.

I actually have one; I think I got it when I took S-390 back in 1975. Just looking for lesson plan
material or perhaps a guidebook or manual which hopefully covers the basis and origin of it.

Very best regards,

Marty Alexander

Marty

I have the one I used to teach how to use it. The Region had a large
one 5 ft. in diameter that we used. I have not seen any in my travels
but there must be someone who knows where you could find one to
obtain.

Regards
Doug Campbell

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: January 21, 2010
Subject: "Golden Hour" Evacuation or Response Plans
To: Forest Supervisors

Medical evacuation and response plans are designed to ensure persons who are victims of trauma are provided adequate care in time to make a difference. Emergency responders refer to the “golden hour” as the brief window of time in which the lives of a majority of critically injured trauma patients can be saved if definitive treatment is provided. The golden hour begins at the moment of injury and ends with the necessary life-saving intervention. Which means trauma is “time sensitive”, and there is no time to waste.

Because the landscape within which our employees work is so different upon and across all 18-National Forests, I want every Forest Supervisor to develop a plan by June 1 that meets the intent of connecting employee trauma victims to adequate medical care within the golden hour across the diversity of your forests. I leave to your discretion how this will be done but encourage you to consider a number of contingencies, not relying on one method alone.

It is my expectation that these plans will be shared with Incident Management Teams during team in-briefings and that you require their use during incident management operations.

Once you have completed your plans, I would ask that you practice their use on every Ranger District through simulation or other means. I would appreciate an invitation to observe and participate in these exercises.

There are a few examples of these plans out there. Please contact Gene Smalley for more information.

Thank you for your continuing commitment to the safety and well-being of our employees.

/s/ James M. Peña (for)
RANDY MOORE
Regional Forester

cc: Gene Smalley
Peter Tolosano

SME=Subject Matter Experts

Ab,

I have posted the thread on facebook from the website (after reading it). We moved to Bouquet Canyon in 1968 from Claremont. My dad was the patrolman at that small 4 room oak house that used to stand next to the Inn. We moved down to the Texas Canyon Station while I was in Jr. High School, 70 or 71. We were there when Ron Smith, Ray Guardado and Bill "Willy" Smith were. I remember most of the Zuni hotshots, but in particular "Herman" who taught me how to play pool in the barracks. I also remember Judy Ferrel the cook for the crew. As a teenager, I hiked the firebreaks and ridges all over that canyon and went with my dad many times up to the lookout on Sierra Paloma ridge. We used to bring groceries to "charlie" don't recall his last name but he had a glass eye. Willie Smith taught me to drive the switchbacks in a VW baja up near "the falls" campground.

We moved to Oak Flat in 1974, 75. My dad worked with the Tanker Crew there. I was a rebellious young man at that time so I didn't get to involved but I loved the terrain and the ridges there. My Dad had it rough then, and after the tour at Oak Flat he left fire suppression and moved into Recreation at Crystal Lake. I think he started out at Dalton with the hotshots back in the early 60's. He was driving back and forth from Claremont when I was younger. I have HS pins from Dalton as well as Redmond. Also have a Zuni Hardhat and his fire vest from the Saugus District. My most memorable story told by him, was a fire he was on where the Cat Operator had to scoop a couple of digs so they could crawl under it. Seems a wind shift had brought the fire back at them so they prayed under the Caterpillar while the flash passed over them. He showed me the burn holes in his underwear which became the inspiration for the poem I wrote.

I miss him and my Mom both. All for now.

I want to thank you for putting the passing of my Dad on the website, I thought his fellow warriors of wildfire should know. We (Dad and I) became close after I became a father myself (as most do). Now, I am he and proud to be... So again, thank you so much!

Tony O'Connor

Nice memories, Tony, thank you. Ab.

Doug is in his 70s and is well and truly retired. He offers his CPS or Fire Signature Prediction Method free to any an all that want to use it and incorporate it into their firefighting tactics around the world. (Actually, he's done this for years.) Much of his LANGUAGE for conveying what the fire is doing and is likely to do has been incorporated into wildland firefighting courses and firefighting books by authors other than Doug in the last 10 years. Terms include those found here: CPS: Glossary of Terms and Doug's website: www.dougsfire.com/ and a must-read paper by Doug Campbell and Bruce Schubert THE  ART  OF  WILDLAND  FIREFIGHTING Ab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Video Bosa, Sardinia, Italy 2009:

Dear Doug,
Here's attached the link with the Fire Paradox page where there are 4 movies of the summer base of Bosa (Sardinia) where operationals firefighters meet with Universities and firefighters of Spain, Italy, Morocco, Poland, France.
Text are in english and other languages are substituted.
So I think that for you is a good opportunity to know what we're doing in improving fire fighting.
Best regards.
Giuseppe

On ven 29/01/10 5:31, François Binggeli <francois.binggeli@snip> wrote:

Video Bosa 2009:
Queridos amigos,
El dos primeros v&iacute;deo sobre Bosa 2009 est&aacute;n disponibles:

• una s&iacute;ntesis : http://www.fireparadox.org/interact.php [1]
• la versi&oacute;n completa de este rico momento de vida profesional y personal :
  http://www.fireparadox.org/professionnals_exchange.php [2]
  Chers amis,
  Les deux premi&egrave;res video sur Bosa 2009 sont disponibles :
• une synth&egrave;se
• la version compl&egrave;te de ce riche moment de vie
  professionnelle et personnelle
  Fran&ccedil;ois

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.fireparadox.org/interact.php with short Video from the Fire Paradox Base in Bosa, Sardinia, Italy, noted as [1] above
from the FireParadox website, link above:

Sometimes breaking away from conventional fire fighting methods is necessary
What does it mean to interact differently?

* To exchange and transfer the knowledge accumulated by fire experts

The creation of a global knowledge database, starting with information provided by fire fighting experts and practitioners.

www.fireparadox.org/professionnals_exchange.php with Video (4 parts) of approx 32 min duration, noted as [2] above
from the professional exchange page, link above:

During the summer 2009, the fourth operational and scientific international gathers 80 operational, scientists and students in Bosa, Sardinia - Italy, one month after an episode of very large wildfires.

Personnel of fight and scientists works on the propagation dynamics of these wildfire, the many suppression fires carried out, the capacity of fire resistance of the trees, the territorial correlation between agriculture, breeding, fire behavior and fight methods. Education acts and research orientations supplement this multi-field synergy. This rich professional experiment from two weeks is presented with the contribution of the participants who synthesize conclusions and prospects.

Dear Ab:

I'm wondering if anyone out there has any information on the USFS Region 5 Model 48 Computer. I believe it was
produced in the 60s based on spread rates from individual fire reports but I'd like to get confirmation.

Thanks very much in advance for any responses. Greatly appreciated.

I'm attaching a scan of the "Whiz Wheel" as I believe it was called.

Marty Alexander

Ab,

I just read the post from Charlie Possee about Tim passing away. I too, as many others are deeply saddened. I had the rare opportunity to work with Tim and Charlie a couple years ago in Tucson. They were delivering the Paul Gleason version of S-490, Advanced Fire Behavior. It was a BETA test and I was asked to sit in as an independent review and audit of the course. I submitted a 20 page report at the end of the session.

Tim was welcoming and very easy to work with, and I was then, and still am today, professionally impressed with his keen knowledge of numbers, statistics and his “down home” style in communicating complex and technical information to his students. At the end of each day, we would conduct an AAR and discuss the day’s events and tomorrows plans, then adjourn to the lounge, where Tim and Charlie would pull out guitar’s and Tim’s case of flutes, and just start playing music. Tim kept in email contact with me since then, always inquisitive about fire behavior, politics or just how I was doing.

Just before Paul Gleason passed away, he asked us all to visit him someday. He said we could find him sitting on a grassy bench a few feet above a small mountain creek. I’d like to think he has Tim’s company now.

Thank you, Tim. For everything.

Don Will
Tahoe National Forest
Deputy Chief (Ret.)

Ref: Paul Gleason's historical letter Nice image.

My dad was 72 years young. He retired from the Forest Service in 1999, as the recreation supervisor at crystal lake.

He and my mother were joined (in ash) at Camp Williams (east fork San Gorgonio. Mtns) this past year. My Mom
was the mail carrier in the S.G. Mtns for 17 years.

Thank you for emailing back.

Tony

Tony, thanks for sharing anything you'd like to share. This site is a historical repository among other things. Ab.

Thanks, Charlie. I'm glad he did too. Ab.

We have a survey thread. Please go vote for the best hotlist poster.

Here's Original Ab's note:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you missed it on the way in, please read the announcement at the top of the General Discussion forum before voting. Here's a shortcut: Read Me First

Your vote on this poll is important and highly appreciated!

OA

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Best IA size-up poster... who do you think?

Ab.

Hi Ab,

I would like to have this person who feel let down contact me, I too am upset at these new rules and there are
ways to possible get changes made by talking with LuAnn and Kermadine, if enough people complain. Can you
send him, or her my info. (snipped email address) Also the new rule does not require tender drivers to even take
the walk test anymore.

Thanks
Jim

Thanks Jim, will pass your contact info to Let Down. Ab.

I didn't know Bob passed away until now & probably a lot of other people didn't know either. I will pass your
web page link to others. I worked for Bob in 1976 & 77 at Oak Flat. If you would Please pass along my e-mail
address to his son so I can share some funny stories with him. Also, I wonder what the status is on Bob's brother
Dick is now.

Thanks Very Much

Bruce

Good to hear from you Bruce. Will pass your contact info to Anthony. Ab.

Ab,

I am absolutely shocked and saddened to hear of Tim Stubbs passing. I've known Tim for over 17 yrs - ever since
I was the IA Dispatcher for Roswell BLM and Tim was the FMO at Carlsbad National Park.

Over the years I've run into him on various fires around the country and it was always fun to catch up on news and
hear Tim's unique thoughts (and opinions) on everything from fires to politics.

Tim was a very intellectual person who, with his longish hair and way of dressing, really surprised people. He really
had a way with numbers, figures and stats and loved working as an FBAN and also his beloved ATGS work.

He sometimes became very disgruntled with working as an AD after he retired, and often threatened to quit going
out, but his commitment to the safety of firefighters in the air and on the ground wouldn't let him deprive the fire
community of his years of expertise.

He was such an important part of the fire community, it just won't be the same without him. My heartfelt sympathy
goes to his family and friends - he will be missed by all of us.

Marcy

Dear Ab,

Unfortunately I seem to find myself setting up shots in remembrance of old friends. Some I knew and some I didn't.

I never had the honor of meeting NMairbear, but shall miss his knowledge and expertise.

Tonight, I raise yet another shot to a great man, a great firefighter, and a great AIRBEAR.

I've always said the following prayer for helitack and any Fire Aircraft,

"Fly long, and fly safe.......and may God bless you S.O.B.'s.......(Souls on Board).......

Fly long................ NMAirBear............God bless you

sign me.....

CDF FIre Captain

Dear Just Curious:

On January 27th I submitted a post on TheySaid regarding the liability section of our legislation and the thought process of why the language reads the way it does. Please take a look at that post and if it doesn't answer your questions, please feel free to email me directly at cjudd@fwfsa.org and I'll try to explain further.

With respect to your questions on portal to portal compensation: The FWFSA's initial work on the PTP issue started perhaps nearly a decade ago under the FWFSA's leadership of then President Kent Swartzlander. He and I and others from the FWFSA spent many days in DC and many emails back & forth to congressional staff trying to put together adequate language to address the complexities of the issue.

From the earliest time the effort & intent of any PTP legislation was to provide such compensation for all federal land management agency employees who respond to and support "emergency incidents." The legislation continually refers to "wildland firefighters" but the definition of wildland firefighter for this legislation not only includes those eligible for federal firefighter retirement benefits but "an employee of a federal land management agency who is assigned to support wildland fire suppression activities." We fully expect those in the militia and others who are also on these incidents in excess of 24 hours will be included. In fact in 2005 when the Congressional Budget Office used some data from the Forest Service to calculate the costs of PTP under our previous legislation, the data included all manner of employees on such incidents.

That language would seem to suggest that PTP would only be compensable under wildland fire suppression incidents. However under the actual "Pay & Benefits" section of the bill, it states "...inclusive of all time the firefighter (again taking into consideration the aforementioned definition of wildland firefighter) is away from their official duty station assigned to an emergency incident, in support of an emergency incident, or pre-positioned for emergency response..." In other words, it is our expectation that PTP will not be limited to just those that qualify for federal firefighter retirement and will not be limited to just wildfire incidents.

THAT BEING SAID: I have also posted here on previous occasions that early '90s case law found in favor of the National Federation of Federal Employees (NFFE) and against the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) in a case that greatly expanded the definition of wildland firefighter. This case opened up the opportunity for many in the militia or those with firefighting as a secondary position to petition OPM for eligibility for federal firefighter retirement benefits.

Obviously neither the federal land management agencies nor OPM did, or ever has publicized the decision. I would surmise there are many out there (and I know many who have successfully petitioned OPM for eligibility) eligible but who assume they don't qualify. If anyone even remotely thinks they might be eligible for federal firefighter retirement benefits, I would pursue the matter through OPM.

Certainly the cost of PTP for every federal employee on such incidents would be greater than if we tried to limit such compensation only to those eligible for firefighter retirement. However seeking it for all is the right thing to do. And, if somehow we can get Line Officers to stop raiding FIRE preparedness appropriations and spending it on things like ASC and other non-fire projects, sufficient preparedness resources would be in place to keep fire incidents smaller and in turn the number of incidents (fire related anyway) in which PTP would be payable, would be further reduced.

The bottom line is that the amount of money DOI and the USDA get from Congress for suppression, fuels and preparedness is sufficient to provide PTP and the other benefits this bill calls for. We are not necessarily seeking a new big bunch of money to pay for all this. Yes, we included language for $25 million in PTP pilot program "seed" money. That is pocket change in relation to the overall suppression budget. With the inclusion of the FLAME Act language in the Interior Appropriations bill, more money for catastrophic wildfires will be available.

The real issue is the fiscal management of those FIRE dollars. Personally, I believe the funds received by Congress can and should be spent more intelligently and (preparing for the flaming arrows) I firmly believe that federal dollars ought to go to the feds first.

Sorry for the length of this. Hope it answered your questions.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

He has departed for the Fire Camp in Heaven in July of 2009. “God rest his weary soul”

Robert James O’Connor, a Thirty Two year veteran of the USFS (most of it on the Angeles NF)

I am his son, a 20 year US Marine Corps Veteran and this is for my father:

He served by my recollection with the Texas Canyon Hotshots, was the Bouquet Canyon Patrol Ranger,
Texas Canyon Crew Forman, Oak Flat Crew Forman, Crystal Lake Recreation Supervisor, and many
I know nothing about.

He had stories of brave and scary brushes with near death. He would come home stinking of smoke and
bloodshot eyed on many a day in my 18 years being raised by him and my mother (whom departed the
preceding fall). I wrote the following for him and my sisters, all of my family has it (including my uncle, a
retired USFS firefighter as well):

Do with it what you will.

Anthony W. O’Connor

GySgt USMC (ret.)

RANGER BOB

Soot black faces with clothes a smelly muss
Hair sweaty so full of dirt ready just to fuss
Burn holes in the drawers a cigarette a glow
Coughing, sputtering and just raring to go

Siren wailing adrenalin pumping flying low
Mountain burning wind blowing a red glow
Water drops hot shots hop all fired up now
Swinging blades moving dirt like a plow

Wind a shifting firestorm rising never any rain
Dozer moving digging faster to avoid the pain
Crawling under praying for life as fire roars
Fire passes soot black faces holes in drawers

Back to camp dog ass tired ready for a rest
Beat the beast had the feast head for the nest
Sirens wail time to bail back for round two
On the truck grab the rucs, helmet and chew

Dad (07/28/09)

Our Condolences, Anthony.
If anyone has stories to share of Bob O'Connor, please let us know. Anthony, do you know approximately when he was a Texas Canyon Hotshot? Ab.

Ab.

You may post this with out my name in they said and the Hotlist. I know I may be opening up a door for some contractor criticism, however we all need to be educated on what kind of trash is being done up here in Region 6.

I too am sad to hear about the passing of the airbear. We had many PMs over the years and I got to hear him over head once :) Now he is up above looking out for all of us.

It is with great sickness that I am writing this. I attended an R6 preseason contractors' meeting this last week and found that the FS in all of their infinite wisdom is taking a huge step backwards in their contracting program. Specifically they are going very lax in their requirements for contractors. It is extremely frustrating to us contractors that have worked long and hard with our heads held high to raise the standards.

Some of the backward changes:

• Previously our annual inspections were performed by a company without conflict of interest that was chosen by the R6 Forest Service. Now, the annual inspections are to be done by a "qualified" mechanic that we find and hire independently of the Forest Service.
• Our weight tickets are not verified at the scales.
• Our pack tests MAY or MAY NOT be monitored.
• Tenders no longer will have to carry a spare tire (this is because in some other region they are not required to have a spare tire and in typical Government form they wouldn't want them to step up to the plate, but rather have us lower our standards as to accept the other region).  

My heartfelt condolences to Tim's family. He was a good friend.

Mellie

Hi Ab!

Just wanted to let you know that "Behind the Lines" was accepted into the Santa Barbara International Film Festival and will be playing on February 8th and 14th. More information on my website: http://tinyurl.com/FireFilm or the festival's site: www.sbiff.org

Best,

Jennie Reinish

A recent photo of Tim.

Hotlist thread for Tim.

I'm collecting photos and career info on Tim. If you have any, please send them in. Ab.

Appeal FC Exam (652 K pdf file, 16 pages)
FFII and FAE (331 K pdf file, )
examination information (77 K pdf file)

My condolences to Tim's' family on his passing. I spent time on many
fires with Tim, and he always wanted to do what was best for the resources.

Thanks,
Mark

Tim Stubbs, ATGS and FBAN, died of a massive heart attack Thursday in Albuquerque, NM .
He had been attending the annual ATGS refresher course and was at dinner with his co workers
when the attack occurred. Tim was retired from the National Park Service and frequent
contributor to They Said.

Boo

What a shock. Condolences in the deepest sense of the word to all of us. I spoke with Tim just last week. Truly sad loss for the wildland fire community, his family and friends. Ab.

Hi folks,

As most of you know, I'm involved with the rappel standardization effort as mandated by Deputy Chief Hubbard in letter to Fire Director Harbour dated December 17, 2009. As almost all of you know as well, the process to standardize the rappel program began in earnest in August of 2009, fueled in large part by the tragic fatality last summer. To date, the standardization effort is progressing very well. Our target of having the rappel risk assessment done, hazards enumerated, mitigations identified, and a package compiled for senior leadership by spring appears achievable. The purpose of the package is to factually present where we are in the standardization process, outline programmatic weakness and impediments to standardization, and make recommendations of how to proceed for 2010 and beyond.

As part of the standardization process, two groups have been convening to complete various tasks. The two groups are the Interagency Helicopter Rappel Working Group (IHRWG), and a group of senior rappel check spotters. Both groups have thus far been instrumental in moving us forward with standardization.

As an off-shoot to the rappel standardization effort, a few weeks ago the IHRWG met in Boise and drafted an "Issue Paper" outlining a comprehensive list of issues currently being worked on within the rappel community. Like any specialty fire and aviation group, this group exists to track all major and minor programmatic issues and deficiencies. It should be noted that at the time the IHRWG drafted their paper, they were not privy to the rappel risk assessment, associated hazards, and most importantly the identified risk mitigations associated with rappel. Now that we’re further along in the process, I’m suggesting that both groups sit through an in-depth review of the risk assessment headed by National Aviation Safety Manger Ron Hanks so that they have access to the same information I and others leading this effort have had.

As was outlined in the IHRWG paper, a few years ago the rappel community recognized through their quality assurance inspections a significant increase in the incidence of defects of the descent equipment. Through close work with the manufacturer and by applying mitigating measures, the rappel community has been able to continue safe operations with the current equipment. However, because of the questionable quality control by the manufacturer, we have no assurance that we can continue to rely on this manufacturer and equipment. Missoula Technology and Development Center has been working on a replacement system, and we are confident that we will make progress in the evaluation of new descent equipment in the next several months.

In the paper drafted by the IHRWG, the group offered three short-term recommendations for the rappel program: 1) Discontinue rappel for 2010 w/ the goal of commencing rappel in 2011; 2) Stand up a portion of rappel programs using only Bell medium helicopters; 3) Continue to work toward restoring the current rappel program. Their preferred recommended alternative was number 1.

The IHRWG paper has been circulated through the fire and aviation community, and has generated many questions and concerns. Here are the facts:

• No decision has been made with respect to rappel operations in 2010 - that decision will be made by the Chief, probably in conjunction with the rappeller fatality report. The conservative approach would be to assume the agency will not rappel until a viable package is submitted to senior leaders justifying rappel as beneficial to the agency (i.e. all risks mitigated) balanced against employee exposure.
• It is premature to consider offering recommendations to senior leadership as to our readiness to rappel given that we're in the month of January with many identified and planned standardization tasks yet to be completed before spring.
• Although the IHRWG issue paper outlines many programmatic weaknesses, there is a substantial effort underway to mitigate each deficiency (even if temporarily) prior to field season 2010.
• Whether the USFS rappels or not in 2010 and beyond, no helicopters are being eliminated. Helitack is a viable option.
• The effort to vet the new rappel system (rope and descent control device) is proceeding rapidly.

I know there are many rumors and much conjecture swirling through our ranks regarding the rappel program. I am confident in our Agency's resolve to make this program better, and ask each of you to stick with the facts and help us with this process. I'm happy to answer any questions.

Tks Jon

Thanks Jon for the definitive update on rappel. Ab.

A thought and a few questions:

First: I thoroughly respect the work that Casey has done on this so take this comment with that in mind.

I am not convinced that leveling the playing field in regard to liability issues by including DOI agencies is a good idea. The logic follows,"Its not fair to forest service employees that they are subject to some poorly considered policy so let's bring in the DOI employees, too!" The better solution would be to not subject any firefighter to the policy at all. I know that making PL 107-203 go away is hard, but lets not give it more leverage and subject more firefighters to it.

Two questions:

Will portal-to-portal rules apply to only those in the new firefighter series or anyone who responds to a qualified incident?

Will portal-to-portal rules apply to only fire incidents or for all-hazard incidents as well?

Thanks.

Signed,
Just Curious

I lost my retention bonus when I took a perm promotion to the GS-08 level, but according to that document I
am supposed to have maintained it. So I have some retention back pay coming.

Q3. If I receive a promotion to a GS-08 firefighter retirement covered position will my retention allowance
continue? What if it’s a promotion to a GS-09?

A3. Yes, the retention allowance would continue and the 10% would be based on the GS-08 rate of basic
pay. If you’re promoted to a GS-09, your retention incentive would end.

Sincerely,

Northnight

Little is known yet other than that. A few early articles are out on the net about it. I wonder what will get frozen?

Remember last year's "Travel Ceiling"?....We'll see.....

-MJ

Ab,

Having been in the Rappel program from 1987-2001, and having been a part of the renewal of this program, I was involved in
attempting standardization within the region where I was employed as well as nationally. The process of Rappelling itself is fairly
standard, the over skid exit and between the skid and belly of the aircraft. The issues seem to be with the configuration of the
contracted aircraft as well as the local needs......

The mindset of launching every time configured to Rappel on every call vs arriving on scene and making decisions based on
location, behavior and responding resources as well as the land designation ( ie wilderness vs general forest.) seemed to be a
major hurdle.

One of the tools I developed to assist with our decision to staff these fires was this:  I did a 10 yr. fire history overlay with the
roads in the layer. Then depending on the percentage of the slope, we added 1/4 to 1/2 mile on either side of the road. The fires
that fell within these parameters we called Ground response. And all else we called this Aerial delivered fires. The facts showed
that approx. 65% of the fires on our unit fell within the grounds that were Aerial delivery. So when we got a location of the new
start, we had a fairly good idea if this was going to require delivering FFtrs. via Rappel. I am not saying that this is the answer to
the question of standardization but could be considered when working on this process.

Complete standardization will be difficult with the way that the agency procures aircraft for this mission. All helicopters are not
equal, as well as all Spotters are not created equal as well as all Rappellers are not created equal etc. etc. Standardization will
assist the human part of the equation but the procurement process will need to be standardized also. The program itself has been
proven viable and needs to continue into the future. Perhaps the agency needs to look at the # of programs and analyze whether
or not there truly is a need on that unit or within that region. Limits need to be identified on the # of Programs that utilize this
system and these limits need to be fair and equitable to all.

I say to all the folks involved in this program, You need to become part of the solution and sometimes the hard decisions are
not being analyzed. Not sure if all will agree with everything I say here but the only way standardization will be achieved is if all
the players realize that they have an opportunity to enhance the program by becoming involved and perhaps we will see this
program well into the future! IMHO!

Bob

I have read a few post where people say they will lose the retention in a detail. That is NOT the case. If you are in
a detail, your official position remains the same, and you continue receiving the bonus. However, if you take a
temporary promotion, you DO lose the bonus because you are not in your official position.

Here are the 'rules' (from your site) with all the questions and answers:
www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2009/retention/more-retention.htm.

I have been both in a temporary promotion and a detail since I began receiving my retention, and everything on that
sheet was true. I lost my retention during my temporary promotion, and continued to receive it while in my detail.

Hope the info. helps-

No Name

Thanks for that No Name. I had forgotten we had it. Perhaps several detailers reading here will further clarify their own situations in light of those rules. Ab.

Sign me skeptical....

The rappel standardization has nothing to do with the rappellers vs helitack. It has been a process that has been in the
works for years, unfortunately it's a catalyst from this year's accident that is forging the current discussion. Rappel has
its application in many different arenas, and as such, it is felt that the procedures from every base need to be crisp and
coherent... and yes, standardized. It is a long process for those who are engaged, check spotters and many others.

Nationwide there is a push for standardization in aviation, and to some degree what we do with our rotor assets.... and
how we deliver our personnel. It simply has nothing to do with how you get there, and the group as a whole needs to
realize that.

SC

It would be good to know exactly what the rules are. Ab.

I was just made aware that the November issue of FireRescue Magazine has a pretty good feature article how Adapx pen
technology is beginning to make its appearance on the fireline. See attached. This would be extremely useful for damage
assessment or making annotations to the IAP map by non-GIS trained personnel.

Fire Geek

Nov09_ThePenAndThePaper.pdf (229 K pdf file, shared with permission from the author and the Fire & Rescue Magazine)

I encourage those involved with this process to ask what "Program" means. Do we have a longline program?
A fixed tank program? Bambi Bucket program? Rappelling is a tool within the helitack program. We use it for
getting to fires that we can't land at and more often as a recruiting tool to attract applicants.

I sincerely hope that there isn't someone at a high level in the organization driving a personal agenda to get back
to the old days of Rappellers vs. Helitack. There is a distinct possibility of specializing ourselves into inefficiency.

Sign me Skeptical..........

The Wildland Firefighter Apprenticeship Program is putting on leadership development training exercise;
Rattlesnake Fire Staff Ride. Anyone interested is encouraged to fallow the instructions in this announcement.

RAGZ....

Text below. Ab

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wildland Firefighter Apprenticeship Program

Rattlesnake Staff Ride Announcement 2010

The Wildland Firefighter Apprentice Program working in partnership with the Mendocino Interagency Hotshot Crew and the Mendocino National Forest is putting on two staff rides for the Rattlesnake fire. First session will be conducted on January 29th and 30th. Second session will be conducted on March 5th and 6th. The hands on learning experience that is provided during these staff rides is invaluable. Currently we are looking to diversify our attendee base to include different units/ agencies with different backgrounds.

The material will be presented over the course of two days; the first part being presented in the classroom Friday night here at the Wildland Fire Training Center in McClellan CA, and the second part being presented at the site of the Rattlesnake Fire on the Mendocino National Forest.

We would like to take this opportunity to extend an invitation to you and your employees to participate in this staff ride. There is no cost for these staff ride sessions and attendees are expected to provide for their own transportation, food and lodging. If you have any individuals on your units/ departments that would like to attend the staff ride please feel free to contact us. This would be a great experience to expose your employees to an important fire and leadership training exercise. Please respond by Wednesday January 27, 2010 for the first session and February 18th for the second session.

For more information and to sign up for this event, interested parties are encouraged to contact:

Ramon Gomez
Assistant Apprentice Coordinator for January 30th staff ride
(916) 640-1102
Aaron Grove
(916) 640-1061
Apprentice Coordinator for March 6th staff ride or

Nate Gogna
Wildland Firefighter Apprentice Program Manager - BLM
McClellan AFB
3237 Peacekeeper Way, Bldg. 200
McClellan, CA 95652
ngogna@ nospam ca.blm.gov

Haw Haw. Fun. Ab.

I just took a look at those suggestions and they are exactly the info I was looking for.

Thanks a million for the help.

Stay Safe.

Drew

• When a civil leadership unaware of the facts tells its armies (wildland fire managers) to advance when it should not, or tells its armies to retreat when it should not, this is called tying up the armies.
• When the civil leadership is ignorant of military affairs but shares equally in the government of the armies, the soldiers (firefighters) get confused.
• When the civil leadership is ignorant of military maneuvers but shares equally in the command of the armies, the soldiers hesitate.

Once the armies are confused and hesitant, trouble comes from competitors (fires). This is called taking away victory by deranging the military."

The Art of War, Sun Tzu

Again I would like to make a case for the centralized fire organization! We simply cannot continuing allowing the state and local agencies to receive all the positive press in managing complex campaign incidents, including non fire incidents! It isn't fair and never has been "we all know that"! Simply put these agencies have lesson learned on how to manage and mitigate their decisions on these extremely complex situations! They have learned well from us and in many circumstances have mastered well how to take advantage and educate extremely well why they provide a positive service to whom they protect and serve.

The one thing we need to communicate more effectively to the press and the alternate agencies over and over again, is that we have the qualified leaders experienced enough with the resources aligned behind us to step up and intercede on their behalfs. So they don't have to take the political heat, and risk their political futures and their funding within their representative fire protection districts! It is finally time for those that cooperate with us, and look to us for professional advice in these adverse situations too band together with their full support as firefighters and respect and support our only request! Its simple it's really not a competition: they have their role and we know ours! Who really makes decisions after all! We all do collectively. We just have different priorities!!!

Jeffsz00tv

Drew,

You can download and save youtube videos completely legally by downloading "free flv converter". Google flv converter
and there are results galore to download and convert youtube, metacafe, and almost any other type of embedded videos.
Once downloaded the same software will allow you to convert the videos to wmv and embed in powerpoint. Not sure if
that's what you were asking but... Hope it helps.

DS
Sent from my iPhone

Sorry to bother you with a relatively small issue, but Im kinda lost. My department is a small town combo department
that is trying to get with the times of the Redcard system. My problem lies in the fact that I have a very small library
of videos to pull from to develop a good engaging power point. If you know of any websites that are unlike youtube
in the fact that you cant save the videos, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,

Drew

Drew, I don't know, but perhaps someone here will. Ab.

Reel to reel

H.R.4488DearColleague.pdf (46 K pdf file)

I hope you feel better soon Casey. Ab.

Up to now there is no National Rappel Program. There are a gathering of Regional and Forest programs. As you well know we have task groups assigned to sift through the constant changes in equipment (QC), procedures, and governing standards (NFPA). These groups give their time freely to try to keep the program afloat. But they cannot truly succeed until we make the commitment to pare down from the multitude of platforms, correct variations in procedures for cargo delivery, and decide with one voice what the primary mission for the program is. The end state of a national program cannot succeed until these processes are complete. I don’t know if you’re clairvoyant, in the know, or just stirring the @#$% but I sit here in my motel room tonight getting ready for another (the fourth) week of the continuing process. You felt you couldn't make a difference. That is unfortunate. However, the time has come, the motivation and the support are in place and the program will be better for it. It won’t happen overnight. It may not happen in 2010. Change is never easy but it will come. Keep the faith.

sign me, working toward the change

Thanks for your contribution. Ab.

I don't know for sure what the status of "the guy" is. I'll try to find out. I simply wonder why
when the R5 "Chief" is gone the Deputy Chief does not fill in. Edward as you call him is back
now so maybe it is not important.

Boyz and Girlz in the Woods

Some interesting topics being covered in this labor relations meeting

Region 5 Partnership Council Agenda, January 27th meeting

Many relate to fire and to morale.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On another topic. Does anyone know if the guy who is "acting" for Ed Hollenshead is being groomed for R5 Chief position when
he retires? Interesting how whenever a very well qualified woman gets close to and applies for the R5 Chief position they bring in a
man from somewhere else. Why doesn't it feel like the best man or woman will be hired? No doubt they'll choose someone from
R8 so R5 can continue to be whipped into line.

Boyz and Girlz in the Woods

What is your idea of a functional movement process? Is this like PT time being supported?
Is it a program that's different from what we have?

roadrunner

PS. Nice job Casey and FWFSA and supportive letter writers!

H.R. 4488 To implement updated pay and personnel policies in order...

A bill in the US Congress:
To implement updated pay and personnel policies in order to improve the recruitment and retention of qualified Federal wildland firefighters...

I am usually content to browse They Said. However, so much of the following information is misleading, I had to say something.

For the record I feel bad “bitching and whining” when people are out there fighting and dying, and terrible things are going on in the world, but we must all continue on.

Description:

The firefighter retention plan was implemented in FY 2009 and has resulted in a decrease in R5 vacancies from 363 vacancies in June 2008 to 181 vacancies in December 2009.

(Of the people I know who were hired into permanent positions or changed positions since the retention incentive started, none of them were hired strictly because of this incentive. None of them applied for their current job because of this incentive. They WERE hired because of a more aggressive hiring policy, and often lower standards in the hiring process. Remember the June-July 2008 hiring joke? Job references were not even checked!!)

Key Points:

The plan includes 4 actions being taken by the Forest Service:

• All (permanent) seasonal firefighters were offered the option to convert to full-time firefighter positions; approximately 502 positions have been converted to full time; the estimated cost of this action is $21 million; employees that opted to convert received an increase in their compensation and benefit package; (I was not "offered" PFT, I was coerced. In fact I am still being coerced, and I am now being threatened. I have been told that if I do not accept PFT soon I may not have a job anymore.)
  • GS - 5 - Seasonal $31, 422; Full-time $35,029
  • GS - 6 - Seasonal $35,029; Full-time $46,885 (these pay increases are because of A: our regular yearly increase which is still far below the rate of inflation; and B: the 10% increase that is conditional, and may be terminated at any time.)
  • Full-time firefighters also accumulate retirement and leave benefits year round vs. on a seasonal basis.
  • The option of conversion will continue to be offered on an annual basis, and all eligible seasonal positions that are vacated will be converted to full time positions when filled until all seasonal positions have been converted. (Annually? I have been "offered" 4 times already. Again, I am being told that I may not have a job much longer if I continue to refuse.)
• Effective March 1, a one year 10% Retention allowance for firefighters in grades GS-05 through GS-08 was implemented. Approximately 1,675 employees received the allowance. The one-year cost is approximately $7 million.
  • The allowance will be reviewed prior to the expiration date to determine if it continues to meet justification standards for renewal in March 2010. A decision will be made by January 31, 2010. (remind me why this is not applicable to details? Where is the “incentive” to step up when you lose money?)
• Assessment and evaluation of a separate firefighter series is ongoing. Regional staff work has been completed and provided to the WO Classification Branch. In order for OPM to consider the development of the firefighter series a proposal must be forwarded to OPM from USDA. OPM does not have a standard timeline for response. (I think we all know how long it takes OPM to change something.15+ years?)
• Evaluation of the current Special Salary Rate for firefighters in Southern California area is ongoing. Regional specialists are working in conjunction with the WO to determine if additional changes are required to the current Special Salary Rate. (Southern CA is not the only part of the U.S. that is expensive to live in.)

"The Forest Service currently plans to employ 4,432 firefighters in California. There are 181 vacancies.”

The level of disrespect in my workplace has increased as a result of turning down PFT status. My quality of work remains at or above the expectations of my supervisors, and my references and performance appraisals reflect this. I consistently take on duties far above my pay grade, and I have always taken on a variety of collateral duties...whether on my module or my district. I like to think that even through the coercion and harassment I have remained a loyal and motivated employee. I believe in sticking around to make this a better place to work. I am a paying member of the F.W.F.S.A., and I actively try to recruit new members. Meanwhile many past colleagues have bailed to chase a better paycheck and retirement. However, my patience is wearing thin.

The best part is that there is NO work for several months a year at my station as it is snowed in. Even getting to work is a chore, and can be extremely dangerous during the winter months. There is no housing available on the F.S. grounds, there is little available locally with none that is affordable at my grade, and I have been told that permanent employees about GS-5 cannot stay in the barracks. This leaves no option other than making a 1 hour to 1.5 hour drive each way into the mountains. This not only costs $320-$400 a month, but it is dangerous on our narrow mountain roads...roads that are questionable during the summer months!! I think we all know the statistics on traffic related injuries and fatalities.

The reality is PFT is not a perfect solution for those of us in lower pay grades, or those of us at out stations. Additionally, some of us retain the “old school” belief that experience is of value before climbing the ladder into a leadership or supervisory position. This is not a pay game like in the business world; we are directly responsible for peoples lives.

I am sure many will think of me as a whiner who does not know how good he has things in a poor economy. Fair enough. I have never asked for PFT or an increase in pay, or a cash award for the additional duties I take on. I was content to do my job and move up when I felt I was ready, or when I needed a bigger check.

The following is a list of things that I think the R.O. SHOULD spend their time and money on, many of which have already been proposed by the F.W.F.S.A. and ignored:

• A:  Benefits and retirement for our temps, the backbone of our workforce;
• B:  A flat 20%-25% pay increase across the board for all fire personnel;
• C:  Updated the pay scale to account for the actual rate of inflation;
• D:  PFT for those that WANT it, or those who work in places with longer fire seasons;
• E:  4 day work weeks, or guaranteed overtime similar to Cal Fire. This could address B if played right.
• F:  Portal to Portal.

Maybe my experiences are unique, I am a whiney little wuss, and my ideas are crazy. I believe it is a case of terrible leadership, and years of accepting exploitation. I endeavor to be a better leader to those that work for me. But right now I want this propaganda exposed for what it is: a LIE.

Signed,

Soon to be Flamed (no pun intended)

Thanks for the perspective and suggestions. Ab.

I have listened and shook my head for the last sixteen years about standardizing the rappel program.
I have attended Regional Spotter Workshops and come to consensus on procedures for make and
model and after everyone went home, we were right back to "business as usual". We have a guide
outlining procedures for make and model and I still find no matter where you go Region to Region
there are "geographical differences" to those standards. The rappel bases within the FS, BLM and
NPS need to ADHERE to those standards as written and not "roll your own". I hope one day someone
can show me that we truly have standardized procedures within the National Rappel Program.....

NZ Supe (ret)

Lots of lessons learned reports have been posted on the Hotlist in the last 2 days. Ab.

DEFINITELY MORE TO FOLLOW.

Casey Judd
Business Manager
FWFSA

Excellent! Ab.

10:58 PM PST on Thursday, January 21, 2010

By PAUL LAROCCO
The Press-Enterprise
Special Section: Inland Wildfires

Prosecutors announced Thursday that they will seek death for the man charged with setting 2003's Old Fire in San Bernardino County, drawing an emotional response from his attorney.

Rickie Lee Fowler, 28, was indicted last October on five counts of murder and one count each of arson of an inhabited structure and aggravated arson.

"I'm so shocked and dismayed," said his attorney, Don Jordan. "The five people this man is accused of killing died of natural, medical causes, not from smoke or fleeing the fire."

The Old Fire destroyed 1,003 San Bernardino County homes over nine days beginning Oct. 25, 2003. It burned 91,281 acres, wiping out entire neighborhoods in San Bernardino and surrounding mountain communities.

Ultimately, prosecutors linked the blaze to five residents who suffered fatal heart attacks while fleeing. (more at the link)

The crew is compiling information to preserve the origins that have formed the foundations for an extensive tradition of hard work and solid wildlandfire firefighting. These traditions were built on the shoulders of many individuals who proudly served on Big Hill Helitack over the years. The helitack crew is seeking assistance from former crewmembers, pilots, and contractors to gather historical information pictures, memories, and accomplishments of our crew. Any documents, photos, stories, or experiences can be forwarded to bigallan516@ nospam aol.com or contact us at (530) 647-5413.

Thanks in Advance,
Big Hill Heitack

It is with great pleasure that we announce the dates of our upcoming 80th annual Training and Safety Conference in the lovely hilltop community of Oak Glen, California. This years conference dates are May 6th and 7th, 2010.

Today, the Southern California Association of Foresters and Fire Wardens carries on the work started 80 years ago, that of providing training and safety programs for the men and women involved in wildland fire control throughout Southern California. This is accomplished through an annual conference held on the first Thursday and Friday of May. At the Annual Conference, programs selected by the Board of Directors are presented by experts in the field of fire control, vegetation management, fuels, weather, and a host of other subjects that are pertinent in today's wildland work environment.

Our web site is a great place to find the latest details on the Association and our upcoming conference.
We encourage you to preregister. Contact us at www.SCAFFW.org

JN

Nice, J. OA added the conference to the Hotlist Calendar. Ab.

IFPM / FS-FPM Conference Call
January 20, 2010

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2010/fed/ifpm-fs-fpm-conference-call012010.doc

Agenda Items:

C-305 IQCS 1/10 Data: In the last few months, IQCS shows we have gone from 280 unqualified employees to 297 unqualified. The increase is most likely due to more employees being entered in IQCS. The total IFPM respondents in IQCS is 2,770 as of Jan 2010. 297 unqualified = 10.7% This is on par with the DOI bureaus.

In the last few months, we have reduced the number of employees who were incorrectly entered in IQCS from 36 to 8. Thanks to all the Regional Reps who have been trying to get the data cleaned up.

• We’re estimating that there are 124 IFPM employees who will not meet their IFPM Standard on Oct 1, 2010. This estimation is based on lack of any supporting documentation in IQCS that shows they have a PTB for 1 or more qualifications that they are lacking for their IFPM position. These employees are of high concern.
• We’re assuming that those employees who only lack an NWCG class, or have an initiated PTB with recent experience in that position will have a very good chance of completing their IFPM requirements before the implementation deadline.
• Please see the C-305 spreadsheet that Evans sent out listing employees who lack required elements and pass on to units to address deficiencies.
• We’re asking the Regional Leads to start making inquiries on the identified unqualified employees on the C-305 report that do not have a PTB initiated for the NWCG qualification(s) they are lacking. “Do they know they are lacking a qualification (or two) and do they have a plan to be qualified by Oct 1, 2010?”
• Evans will pull the next C-305 report in March, then early summer, and again prior to the implementation deadline. If anyone needs further information, let him know.
• If a person has an incorrect Job Task (Technical, Professional) the information in the C-305 report may not show the correct data (Tenna). This came about when some of the Job Tasks were revised in IQCS, and if the person was entered into one of the Job Tasks that was removed, then their competency status may be in error. This can only be accomplished manually by the IQCS account manager, and is not something that can be fixed by the IQCS program.
  • This is a reason why we’re asking everyone to double check that the information entered into IQCS is correct for each IFPM employee.
• R4 requested a data call from all their Forests, asking that each Forest submit an organization chart and IFPM position identification worksheet. So far, this information has been very helpful, and can be used for other purposes. See Tenna Biggs (R4) if interested in more information.

Seasonal SFFs: Technically speaking, the SFF category also applies to 1039 Temp-seasonals at the GS-5 and GS-6 level as it does those on a PSE appointment. However, due to the transient nature of 1039 temp-seasonals, it puts a big burden on the unit’s IQCS Account Manager to enter them into IQCS when they may not be returning the following season, or if they get a permanent position.

Prior to the implementation deadline, a 1039 temp-seasonal may be hired into a SFF position, but must be qualified on Oct 1, 2010. If the employee’s season of employment will transcend the Oct 1, 2010 deadline, they must be informed upon time of hire that they must meet their IFPM Standard on Oct 1, 2010, or be subject to the additional requirements for unqualified employees (which may entail removal from their position) if they fail to meet IFPM Standard on the deadline date.

For 1039 employee’s with rehire status, the local unit will have to be cognizant of the implementation deadline, and work to ensure the employee will be qualified on Oct 1,2010. Evans will bring this issue up at ASC in February.

T1 Helicopter Managers: Managers of T1 helicopters on exclusive-use contracts are <etc at the link>

We hired two over the last 3 seasons on the Hotshot crew. We had to use the student hire STEP program,
they both worked out really well. One of them became a citizen last year. Great time!

RC

A couple of years ago my (R5) forest hired a green card as a temp through the Central California Consortium.
Not sure if it was "legal" or otherwise, or if the same's true today.

Good Luck!

No name please

Great job, Casey! Ab.

Director, Fire and Aviation Management, GS-0401-15, Pacific Southwest Region, Region 5; Vacancy Announcement opened Jan 19 - closes Feb 19

The vacancy announcements for the position of Director, Fire and Aviation Management, GS-0401-15, Regional Office, Pacific Southwest Region, Region 5, with duty location in Vallejo, CA, opened January 19 with a closing date of February 19. Serves as the Director, Fire and Aviation Management, and is the technical authority in Fire and Aviation Management with responsibilities for providing technical advice and guidance to the administrator-in-charge of the planning, development, and guidance of resource management programs and providing technical guidance, program review, coordination, and leadership for the Fire and Aviation Management programs.

The vacancy announcement #s are ADS10-R5-RO5FA-00123G (Merit Promotion - internal open to status eligibles) and ADS10-R5-RO5FA-00123DP (Demonstration Project - external open to US Citizens) and can be viewed on the OPM web site "USA Jobs" listed below with instructions on how to search - or - in AVUE. Please continue to outreach this important vacancy throughout the announcement period.

Applicants should print/review the announcement carefully and ensure that their application is filed on or before the closing date of February 19.

http://www.usajobs.opm.gov etc

If any engine or fire equipment happened to break down in BF Eastern Montana you could count on
Ed getting it moving again.

Ed retired in Logistics and managed the cache.
Ed kept current in fire quals and last took the Arduous Pack Test about 10 years ago.

Ed, not only did fire for 46 years, he was also the College Rodeo Coach, and Math Teacher.
This Math background gave Ed the ability to keep a very sharp pencil.
This sharp pencil was obvious over time, (Despite Our Efforts) there was little to nothing that escaped from
Ed's fire cache without him knowing.

Years ago, Ed was also the BLM's representative to hike, and place a wreath for the 50th anniversary of
the Mann Gulch tragedy.

Because of the limited years that I worked with Ed, I cannot begin to speak of what he has accomplished
in his life.

But I must congratulate Ed, and wish him a happy retirement.
PS: Ed is 76 years young.

Lucky Lindy

Nice tribute. Anyone have info or photos for the Memory Book?

Oregon: Two found dead in crashed plane

By Bennett Hall, Gazette-Times reporter | Posted: Monday, January 18, 2010 2:00 pm

Two federal wildlife managers doing an aerial survey of migratory waterfowl died when their small plane went down west of Philomath Sunday afternoon.
Search teams found the wreckage Monday morning. Both the pilot and a passenger were found dead at the scene.

The pilot, Ray Bentley, 52, of Blodgett, was a longtime employee of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. His passenger, David Pitkin, 59, of Bandon, was a former employee working as a contractor for the agency.

The two men were involved in the annual midwinter count of migratory birds, said David Patte, a spokesman for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. They were on their way back to Corvallis after surveying duck and goose populations in coastal estuaries.

“You couldn’t meet two finer people,” Patte said. “They were really dedicated to the work they did. They loved the migratory bird program.” (more at the link)

Condolences. Ab.

Devin Storz, 21 yr old wildland firefighter on LPF's Mt Pinos District, died yesterday morning when a 90' pine tree fell
on his parents' house in Pine Mountain. Winds were reported to be 80 mph.

http://mountainenterprise.com/atf.php?sid=6359&current_edition=2010-01-15

Condolences. Ab.

I am shocked that R3 has made such a drastic turn from the Fire Organization that it was 5 years ago when I was an FS Engine Capt there! To think that a Fire Apparatus should NOT be equipped with lights and sirens is appalling. This after the Region took the lead, nationally, in regards to the “Contract brand” tire issue and had Engine Modules replace tires due to the safety concern of the lower ply tire that came standard with new engines.

Will it take a number of near misses or an actual roadside strike before you listen to your subject matter experts again?

Look for all you “Forestry Tech” first people and the “Firefighter” first folks…Point blank, it comes down to safety! I want my Fire personnel to be “obnoxiously obvious” while traveling to/from and while performing their current mission. I do not have a problem with spending $8k funds in order to provide as much safety as I can for them. $8k is nothing to me when compared to a firefighter! As a Management Officer I preach this daily to my personnel.

Do you have to run code 3? Not always…Will Code 2 or Code 1 work (can you use those?).

AN ENGINE IS A TOOL and with that tool there should be safety measures built in and with that, training. Do we give a rookie a chainsaw and say, “have at it boy, bump up that line and cut that Pondo on top of the hill, yeah the one caught up in all those dead ones with the roots burnt out”? I think not.

At this time R8 USFS has a “Train the Trainer” Fed EVOC course that they have begun teaching this past year, I had the fortunate opportunity to participate in the class while helping to instruct an Engine Academy. I learned few things to add to by personnel bag of tricks, which I immediately brought back to my home unit and instilled and felt that it covers many of the issues that have been discussed on past posts.

Am I advocating mach 20 in a unit, lights ablaze with siren blaring? Heck no! That is part of the training. However, if someone can see me or my modules driving down the road and they recognize that, “hey something’s going on, maybe I should pay more attention!” then I think the lights and sirens just paid for themselves.

Red or Blue…Well all I can say it that universally RED = Fire, BLUE = Police. But given that option of Blue or no lights…heck yeah give me some Blue ones.

Please take your GS levels off your sleeves and listen to what the folks on the ground are saying. Keep the lights and the sirens, make a commitment to safety.

Ta’

Ab, that should do it.. Thanks for all that you do.

You're welcome. The contributors make this place what it is. Ab.

Thank you for your time

Jose

It is not only Health and Safety, but some of the ludicrous rules put in place that decrease morale. I am getting really tired of working for someone that is completely disconnected from the troops. Speaking of which. Where is Randy all the time that he can not even type his electronic signature to his multiple letters? Why does the R.O. have a full gym? I have to decide between a set of kettle bells or new sleeping bags, because it comes out of my meager module funds. Instead of a mobility or exercise coach, why don't you folks give me the budget to buy the right things to keep my people healthy. Some folks may lack the knowledge to buy their own stuff or they have the newest GPS and choose not to buy things to help keep people healthy. Maybe they are in the same dilemma I am in: using module funds to buy exercise equipment and physicals for SCBA's or buying the stuff that would make us all happier while we are on the road. Like sleeping bags.

I'll climb off my soap box,

Northnight

Hotlist

Ab,

The Forest Service -including our large component of firefighting employees- is made up of a very large
percentage of people that do a very physical job. My question is: why we do not invest in each employee's
physical fitness at every level, when that would be the most logical action?

Two issues:

• I have also heard R5 upper managers asking why do we have so many physical injuries? Are we
  shirking safety?
• Someone mentioned yet another study of morale.

One thing that would improve morale and simultaneously reduce on-the-job  injuries is to invest in each
employee's physical fitness using the functional movement process. Our FS needs to be an interactive health
partner. When people feel good about themselves they feel better. Morale and safety increase.

Instituting a Functional Movement program would vastly improve Forest Service SAFETY and MORALE.
It would be a cost effective fix!

WE CAN DO THAT NOW.

sign me "concerned for Morale and for Safety!"

• Initiate opportunities and forums to connect the Regional Forester Team with employees for constructive and healthy dialogue. These forums may include the RF Team participating in regular “coffee” gatherings with several employees who normally do not have the opportunity to interact with the RF Team, periodically joining staff meetings, and greeting employees in areas not typically visited.
• Identify employees who are willing to serve as “morale liaisons” to facilitate communication and solve issues at different levels of the organization.
• The Regional Forester will communicate to employees the steps that will be taken to address morale in the Region, including information sharing on the Chief’s sensing efforts. Encourage forests to adopt similar measures that the Regional Office will be using.
• Conduct simple surveys in the Regional Office to detect and monitor common themes pertaining to morale that may emerge that the Regional Forester Team can proactively address.

Dave was one of the Good Ones; he will be missed. My heartfelt condolences to his family and friends for their tragic loss.

>From the Jan 12, 2010 Humboldt Sun newspaper (Winnemucca, NV):

"David Buchanan Griggs, born Nov 26, 1946... passed away on Dec 25, 2009 from a head injury due to a fall.

Born in Willimantic, Conn, David grew up in Davis, CA... (he) graduated from the University of Montana at Missoula as the
outstanding forestry senior. During the summers of his college years he was a smokejumper in the Pacific Northwest and
Alaska... Dave moved to Moscow, Idaho, to work on a Master's degree in Rangeland Management. In 1976 he began his
career with the Bureau of Land Management in Shoshone, Idaho. He later became the Area Manager for the Paradise-Denio
Area out of Winnemucca (NV). He moved to Reno in the 1980's and at the time of his retirement from the BLM in Jan 2009
he was serving as the Natural Resource Specialist, and Safety and Occupational Health Manager. In recent summers he used
his knowledge of firefighting as a Single Engine Airtanker Manager in Alturas, CA.

Dave was an athlete, a conservationist, and a handyman, but he first and foremost loved his family. He is survived by his wife
Josie, his sons William (Gil) and Eldred (Ed), and his daughter Ruth, his mother Ruth Griggs and his sisters Holly Coles and
Paula Lenz.

A memorial service will be held at Little Flower Church, 875 Plumb Lane in Reno on January 23 at 12 noon. There will be a
reception immediately following the service."

This was typed in from the newspaper itself by one of our mods. Condolences. Ab.

Thanks Casey and happy retirement to Dennis. Ab.

ms

Subject: Firefighter Retention Update
Key Issue: Forest Service has implemented a plan to improve firefighter retention

Description:

The firefighter retention plan was implemented in FY 2009 and has resulted in a decrease in R5 vacancies from 363 vacancies in June 2008 to 181 vacancies in December 2009.

Key Points:

The plan includes 4 actions being taken by the Forest Service:

• All seasonal firefighters were offered the option to convert to full-time firefighter positions; approximately 502 positions have been converted to full time; the estimated cost of this action is $21 million; employees that opted to convert received an increase in their compensation and benefit package;
  • GS - 5 - Seasonal $31, 422; Full-time $35,029
  • GS - 6 - Seasonal $35,029; Full-time $46,885
  • Full-time firefighters also accumulate retirement and leave benefits year round vs. on a seasonal basis.
  • The option of conversion will continue to be offered on an annual basis, and all eligible seasonal positions that are vacated will be converted to full time positions when filled until all seasonal positions have been converted.
• Effective March 1, a one year 10% Retention allowance for firefighters in grades GS-05 through GS-08 was implemented. Approximately 1,675 employees received the allowance. The one-year cost is approximately $7 million.
  • The allowance will be reviewed prior to the expiration date to determine if it continues to meet justification standards for renewal in March 2010. A decision will be made by January 31, 2010.
• Assessment and evaluation of a separate firefighter series is ongoing. Regional staff work has been completed and provided to the WO Classification Branch. In order for OPM to consider the development of the firefighter series a proposal must be forwarded to OPM from USDA. OPM does not have a standard timeline for response.
• Evaluation of the current Special Salary Rate for firefighters in Southern California area is ongoing. Regional specialists are working in conjunction with the WO to determine if additional changes are required to the current Special Salary Rate.

The Forest Service currently plans to employ 4,432 firefighters in California. There are 181 vacancies.

KSENGB

From: IAFC News
To: bluefd@flinthills.com
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 4:32 PM
Subject: Urgent USFA Date Call: French Creole/French Speaking First Responders

Urgent USFA Data Call:
French Creole/French-Speaking First Responders

Fairfax, Va., Jan. 15, 2010... The United State Fire Administration (USFA) is gathering information on French Creole or French-
speaking firefighters, EMTs and paramedics who may be able to assist with the Haiti earthquake response.

This is currently only a data call to prepare for possible future needs by identifying the availability of specific skills and qualifications.
It is not an opportunity for immediate deployment.

The USFA is gathering information from parties who meet the following qualifications:

Operational: Firefighter, EMT or Paramedic
Language: French Creole or French
Deployment: Willing to deploy to Haiti for response efforts (time undetermined, assume 1-3 weeks)

Those meeting these qualifications are asked to complete the Haiti response form. The IAFC will transmit the data collected to
the USFA. Again, this is only a data call. Those completing the form are not guaranteed to deploy. If the national response
efforts require your assistance, you will be contacted.

Before and After GIS...

Hotlist

Next week's weather CA-LMU

Ab.

CATF5 just got the call to fly to Miami to stage for Haiti

NVJims

NOC Phase 2 - Concern 0075-10 Update Report 8 - 7.0 Magnitude Earthquake Port au Prince, Haiti (1130 EST 14 Jan 10)

haiti-1noc-phase2-4jan10.ppt (407 K ppt photos)

www.nps.gov/grca/parkmgmt/heli_program.htm

Eric C. Graff
Grand Canyon Flight Crew

I am looking for a Safety officer who would be interested in teaching the S-404. This would be located in the warm southern
portion of Maine and it coming up very soon February 22 at 1300 through Feb 26 at 1200. Give me a call or send me a note
if you are interested...

Gerald Vickers Fire Management Specialist (WUI Assistant)
U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service Region 5 Fire Management

Email Ab for contact info.

The Big Burn: Teddy Roosevelt and the Fire that Saved America by Timothy Egan

This book is another telling of the 1910 fires in Idaho and Montana. It is different in tone and scope than Steve Pyne's "The year of the fires" which I also enjoyed. Pyne's book is wide in scope and tells the story of many more personalities and many other areas in the 1910 Fire Storm. The focus of "The Big Burn" is really pretty limited to the story of Wallace, Idaho and environs and the story of Gifford Pinchot and his relationship to Teddy Roosevelt. With those two focus points the story is told moving back and forth from Wallace to Washington. The politics of Conservation and the role of the President, John Muir and Gifford Pinchot in setting the course for all the federal land management agencies of the future is clear. The final scene of the fire run of August 20 and 21, 1910 is almost anticlimactic because it seems the course has been set for the fledgling Forest Service. But the aftermath focusing on the story of Ed Pulaski and Gifford Pinchot is both tragic and revealing. As I said I enjoyed both books but I feel as if I was in Wallace when the fire storm hit after reading "The Big Burn". Highly recommended, 5 saws.

FC180

has any one heard if we imts and all risk are going to hati?

tr

As of yesterday, my sources at NIFC said they had not gotten any indication and my contact in DHS suggested not now. It was/is a "get the airport up and running" by the military and a SAR show in the rubble. I believe the situation is so fluid, however that the situation could change, especially over time. My contacts at the CDC and WHO say it will be all about immunizations and preventing disease. They're concerned about diseases from cholera and dysentery to dengue fever to measles. If anyone hears more, please let us know. Ab.

Lets talk about micro managing. Well I know what I do for the guys on my crew to ensure they are wearing their seatbelts.
I have done this for years and it works. First I have a lead firefighter in the back to make sure that it is done. When he says
chalk up crew loaded we move. Second we occasionally will do break checks, at a slow speed of course. This entails
hitting the breaks in a controlled area so we don't cause an accident. I might catch one guy sleeping after a long shift and
send him into the seat in front of him. That works for us. We have to look over our shoulder. The moment you don't someone
might slip.

Hotshots&Helicopters

Ab,

In response to all that have agreed or disagreed with the punishment that was handed down, i'd like to put in my two cents.

• As a supervisor of a module you take the proper steps each year to go over policy with your subordinates.
• You go over the standard Driving/Traveling JHA, (which covers seatbelts) and each employee signs it.
• Like most hotshot crews you go over SOPs, which in this case covers the mandatory use of seatbelts, not once but twice.
  Each employee signs the SOPs.
• Prior to driving, the supervisor turns around and verbally tells the employees in the back of the buggy to put their seatbelt on.
• All supervisors lead by example by wearing their seatbelt.
• An hour out of fire camp you get struck by a Semi Truck... the buggy rolls.. people are injured..
• After a few days in the hospital the crew goes home. Some physically injured and all emotionally scarred.
• Upon arrival to the home unit you expect an FLA or at least a debrief, but instead your forest supervisor wants to do
  an Administrative Investigation (due to internet rumor that seatbelts were not worn).
• After all is said and done, the folks that were not wearing seatbelts get a slap on the hand.
• The HS Supervisors on the other hand get suspended.

At what point was policy and regulation not followed..... By the hs supervisors?...  no.. By the adults in the back of the truck that
knew they were supposed to wear them?... yes...

To all you supervisors of modules...... if you don't physically put each individual's seatbelt on for them... and then padlock it in
place so it can't be removed.... you will be held responsible... that's the message forest management is trying to send.

Either that or it's a new forest supervisor head hunting an old hotshot supt.

And because i'm sure people will ask where i got my facts...... I was a Klamath hotshot that day. I won't work for that forest
again.... keep on fightin brothers.. common sense will prevail some day.

Signed

Management without a fire background

JHA=Job Hazard Analysis
FLA= Facilitated Learning Analysis

"Whether anyone thinks it is fair does not matter. The responsibility to lead and be accountable for myself as well as the
other firefighters would have been on his shoulders. It is simply something that comes with being in a position of leadership."

That's worth adding to the Quotes page.

vfd cap'n

www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2010/lessons-learned/SRF_Earthquake_lesson_learn.pdf (3,900 K pdf file)

This was a huge powerpoint that I converted to pdf to reduce the size. Ab.

Just wanted to add alot of our thoughts and prayers were with the Klamath crew after the accident. It was almost retirement time for me when I heard how the incident was handled, Pena and Moore should have put a stop to it, But hey Chief! This should give you a clear indication of why we are so low in the morale department, why, even though this job should by all counts be the best in the world, it's not. Who with any ethics or compassion would level such an adverse action against the crew overhead of a firefighting team and not even visit them in the hospital, does this should realistic to you?

These are. an amazing hardworking group of people who do nothing but good for the public, people who constantly sacrifice their lives for others, they will pull through this persecution, they are Hotshots. . Patty, I am not disgusted with you any more. I truthfully feel sorry for you, what do you see when you look in the mirror? What do you tell your family when you get home? My thought is that since upper management can't do anything to serve the public anymore because of litigation, the only meaningful part of their job is internal affairs. Please resign, retire or change, for your own good, the workforce and the public?

K

As usual the agency finger pointing and knee jerk reaction continues. It seems to me that the agency has it ass backwards in regards to the assigned punishment. Maybe the Supt. and crew need to stay home this fire season and not allow his folks to respond in their CCV's as a safety measure. Since he is ultimately responsible for his employees conscious thoughts and actions whether he is present or not, this would be his only way of ensuring their safety at ALL TIMES. We hire employees to think and when they don't, we can't seem to hold them personally accountable, it's someone else's fault (usually higher up). This appears more like a personal vendetta than really trying to fix the issue. What suggestions did forest management have to ensure seatbelts will always be worn? Shoot, the agency is always great about forking out $$money$$ (REPEATEDLY) on companies to perform surveys on employee morale. Maybe, they can survey employees as to why they do not wear seatbelts, what would make them wear seatbelts, what should be the punishment for failure to not wear a seatbelt?. As always, point the finger at someone not a solution, Business as Usual.

“A good scapegoat is nearly as welcome as a solution to the problem”

DirtMiner

Getting close to that Feb. 28 cut off for region five retention allowance. Got really used to the extra couple of bucks.
Anyone heard if there's a chance of us getting it for another year?

Chuck

Concerning the Klamath IHC Accident,

Who's passing the buck -MTR? I wasn't so concerned about the seatbelts that could have been a lessons learned situation if handled correctly, now its a complete FUBAR. This could be all a bad dream, but from what I heard, the supervisors were unjustly reprimanded, the situation was handled incorrectly by the Klamath National Forest: instead of showing any compassion or possibly learning from the situation, or even taking the time visiting the injured employees in the hospital, the action went straight to an adverse one, rumor has it that a JHA was in place for the crew wearing seatbelts, that it was in the crew SOPs, that the state law requiring seatbelts, and that the Crewboss told the crew to put on their seatbelts that morning. Sounds like a personal violation by the non-seatbelt wearing employees to me.

A proposed two week suspension for the Superintendent? a week for each of the Captains? Letter of warnings for the violators? How pathetically insensitive, ugly elitism by the manager involved. News flash, Fire supervisors are good people who care for their employees safety and well being, the real punishment is when someone gets hurt. Don't any of you dare question why FS morale is so low when you support things that are handled like this... -MTR

Get your Insurance guys! So you can protect yourselves from the evil ones!

RC

While it is the law and policy, once the vehicles start moving it is the adult decisions of individual crew members
to keep their seat belts on. We all know that those in the back of the crew buggies find them extremely
uncomfortable and constricting (hence national discussion to change styles). But to hold squad bosses, captains,
and Supt fully responsible to actions out of their control is crazy. We all do checks but 30 minutes down the road.
When guys are sleeping, how is it the drivers and other responsibility to check seat belts while driving?

BCJ

For Strider,

First of all Klamath IHC crunched a crew buggy to a TC clip, on Highway 99, north of Chico. Not Interstate 5.

KNF held the overhead structure of the crew accountable, as any further up "the chain", and the over head HAVE NO CONTACT WITH THE CREW FOLLOWING DEMOB ON THE FEATHER RIVER puffer, nor on other common incident demob's. Therefore do not have any effect on whether or not the crew fastens seat belts.

While it may be nice to want to place this reprimand higher up, I do believe it lies squarely within the Crew's Structure. Responsibility for safety precautionary checks for all 20 crew members on Handcrew or IHCs falls within the crew's structure. We all check one another.

And lastly, because at Fed Ex, there is very little possibility of threat to ones life. In your career choice, as a wild land fire fighter, there is a chain of command. And it is thru this command structure that accountability will be assessed, and punishment if necessary, dolled out. The safety belt in the buggy is no different than making sure the sawyers have their ear plugs in, or the toolers have their sleeves rolled down.

Stop passing the buck, and making excuses for overhead mistakes.

- MTR

Why didn't the CHP give them a fine on the spot for not wearing their seatbelts?

CC

Why not give an equal disciplinary consequence to Supe and Captains?

Supe says "wear your seatbelt, it's the law"  and has Capt and crew check each other.
Supe and Captains demonstrate "wear your seatbelt, it's the law."
If Supe or Captain sees no seatbelt they correct it.

Sets a climate of seatbelt use. It's a crew thang and "it's the law."

Vehicle accidents kill more firefighters than burnover or falling accidents. My 2 cents...

AL

later on 1/10: Ab, please change the location of the clip to N of Chico on Hwy 99, not I-5. Strider.

OK, here's a disciplinary action I have to call BS on! I heard this from a buddie.

A crewbuggie of hotshots was clipped by a semi-truck last summer on (not I-5 but hwy-99), were run off the road and
rolled over. You probably remember that. Some of the fellas were not wearing seat belts. A CHP
investigation showed that the fault of the accident was the bigrig, not the crewbuggie. So now what
happens?

Crazy but true...

The HS supe that was in the supe's rig - and had no say over the crew in the crewbuggie - has been
given a 10 day suspension without pay by the KNF supervisor. One (or more?) of the Captains got
a 3 day suspension and the shots not wearing the seatbelts got a letter of reprimand.

What's with THAT???

Why is the HS supe blamed for the personal actions of crew in another vehicle? Where is personal
accountability of the individual crewmembers? What kind of message does this send? Crazy!

Where is personal accountability on the part of the Forest Supervisor if she (plus Pena & Moore)
are not holding accountable those not wearing seatbelts?? We're each responsible for wiping our own
bu**s, brushing our own teeth, snapping our own seatbelt, wearing our own gloves!

If Patty does not get that about personal accountability, and her choice of disciplinary actions were not
corrected by Pena and Moore, the additional  message to me is that she and other line officers making
decisions like this will never be held accountable for anything. All they have to do is blame the middle
manager after the fact for their own failure to come up with real solutions themselves. So much for Doctrine
and where the buck stops. So much for morale...

Analogy: you work for Fed Ex and the employee doesn't wear a seatbelt, it's the employee that's fired,
not the employee's supervisor; the employee knows they're personally accountable for seat belts!

Maybe our line officers need a course in logic. Maybe we need smarter people running the show.

Bunch of hogwash! Bros, consult a lawyer and file a grievance! Don't let them set a precedent like this!

Strider

ALL

WC Advocate said on 1/4:

As for Mr. Oppermann’s claim that nobody at OWCP would respond to his letters, if OWCP does not have a written release signed by his wife giving them authorization to communicate with him, they would be violating HIPPA regulations if they did respond to him.

WC Advocate brings up what I consider to be critical point and that is the impact of the HIPPA or health care privacy legislation. All of you need to be aware that if you do not take steps to authorize someone to speak to medical professionals on your behalf if you are injured they may be prevented by criminal law from telling that person anything. Please do what your area requires to establish your health care directive and identify who can deal with the medical profession on your behalf if you are unable to do so. Make sure those near and dear to you know that you have done so and where they can find this information if the need arises.

Now as far as the responsiveness of Federal OWCP to the injured worker; as far as I am concerned it does not exist in any form or fashion. If you have the misfortune to be injured on the job I wish you all the luck in the world in finding a Dr. that is willing to deal with Fed. OWCP on a long-term basis. The county medical association is unable to give me any names of Drs. willing to take on an existing case. Numerous telephone calls have yielded to same result, including several “we wish you good luck in finding anyone” comments from Drs. offices. My personal experience is you will get replies to letters to OWCP in 10% or less of the time including letters sent registered, return receipt requested. If you ask more that one question in a letter and they do reply they will answer only one of the questions. Due to the fact that these letters involved my case, HIPPA should not be a consideration. I am sure there are claims examiners out there that are very hard working, caring people, but from my perspective they seem to be overwhelmed by the system they have to work with. To me Federal OWCP has become a poster child of how the government fails to work and for the good of the employee something needs to be changed.

Now PLEASE everyone, be safe out there and let's not need anyone's OWCP

SWID

OK, enough of this non-fire stuff. Thanks for all the emails and calls. As my old dad used to say to his Scouts,
"Be Prepared".

M

PS Thanks -MTR

In response to Wrench's post and inquiry, I've been to a number of classes taught by burn specialists, and they
have universally discouraged putting any form of gel, goo, salve, ointment, or anything else other than plan water
on a burn. It will feel great at first - but has to be aggressively scrubbed off in the burn center, so the individual
that enjoyed the relief will be cursing your "cure" by the time they get there. Just water, then clean dressings, is
all they recommend. Now, that's for serious burns. Boo-boo type burns, knock yourself out if it feels good, but
if it's going to require treatment, burn folks insist don't put anything on it.

KSENGB

I am attending a WEMT course and we had a presenter from the JMS burn center in Georgia. She stated that the
director of the program Dr. Joseph M. Still repeatedly made the statement that Burn Gels are not good to use on
2nd and 3rd degree burns. The reasoning was that they held in heat.

Take it for what it's worth. It's second hand. But she was extremely knowledgeable and talking way above the
first responder level.

I would be interested in knowing if anyone else out there had similar or contraindicating information

wrench