Fire Gear & More at The Supply Cache

"THEY SAID IT"
 Last Update:  09/05/2008 16:37 PDT

Ellreese.htm

DATE

"Who is responsible for the district if it is found on federal, state or private land?"

In California, we have DPA, (Designated Protection Areas). So, even if a fire is on private land, (normally CDF, state responsibility), inside of National Forest land, the USFS will fight the fire. Same with a chunk of USFS land in State DPA. The CDF would fight the fire.

We do a 'Transfer of Acres" every year at the state level to even all this out, so one Agency does not have too much responsibility for the other Agencies' lands.

Cities, or Counties, usually have agreements with the State, as any land not otherwise designated to a Fire department in California automatically becomes the State's responsibility.

We also have Mutual Aid agreements with various tribes or other Agencies that do not or can not protect their land to the extent necessary, so we respond there, too, within the confines of the agreements. Usually with this kind of agreement, the first shift is free to the receiving Agency; any more than that, and they have to reimburse the responding Agency for suppression costs.

Hope this helped.

-MJ

12.7.2.2. Length of Assignment
Standard assignment length is 14 days, exclusive of travel from and to home unit, with possible extensions identified below. Time spent in staging and preposition status counts toward the 14-day limit, regardless of pay status, for all personnel, including incident management teams.
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12.7.2.4. Assignment Extension
Prior to assigning incident personnel to back-to-back assignments, their health, readiness, and capability must be considered. The health and safety of incident personnel and resources will not be compromised under any circumstance.

Assignments may be extended when:
• life and property are imminently threatened,
• suppression objectives are close to being met,
• a military battalion is assigned, or
• replacement resources are unavailable, or have not yet arrived.

Upon completion of the standard 14 day assignment, an extension of up to an additional 14 days may be allowed (for a total of up to 30 days, inclusive of mandatory days off, and exclusive of travel). Regardless of extension duration, two mandatory days off will be provided prior to the 22nd day of the assignment. When personnel are required to take a mandatory day off, which falls on their normal day off, there will be no pay compensation.
-----

One interpretation says that if a person receives a seven day extension, that person may work 21 consecutive days, beginning travel on the 22nd day. A subgroup interpretation of this position holds that the person may work 21 consecutive days but must begin travel at some point on the 21st day as to avoid any time being clocked against the “length of assignment” on the 22nd day.

A second interpretation says that if a person receives a seven day extension that the two R&R days must be provided prior to the 22nd day of the assignment and therefore the person can effectively work only nineteen total days out of the 21 days. If the person took no R&R days mid-assignment then the person would need to begin travel after day 19.

I’m agnostic as to which interpretation is correct but I do think there needs to be a common understanding and implementation of the policy.

Dumbfounded in Demob

Brother Cub,

Helicopters used in the wildland community are equipped with manually operated fire extinguishers that spray or dump suppressant into the engine(s) upon being triggered. Some are also linked with the fuel shut off so that when they are activated the fuel is also shut off, making them more effective, since the fuel source needs to be cut off to have any chance off suppressing an engine fire. In response to an automatic system, the firing of a suppressant agent into the engine effectively terminates their use until they are overhauled and rebuilt. To come up with the parameters and equipment to automatically trigger a system, while also eliminating the triggering in a non-fire situation such as a hard landing would be extremely demanding, not to mention you would then have the worry of it being accidentally triggered in flight. Most of the systems in race cars are not automatic systems but are triggered by the driver and if you have seen any of these cars catch on fire the systems effectiveness is extremely short and provide only a few moments of protection, if any. It is the rescue crews stationed around the track that suppress the fires. Their effectiveness is limited by where the nozzles are placed (usually the engine compartment) and the amount of agent present.

Another issue is the re-ignition of fuel that has escaped the fuel cells or is still in the fuel lines. Even if you were able to come up with a weight and space conscious design for helicopters that placed nozzles in the personnel area, you would also be creating a hazard to the occupants trying to escape due to the visual obstruction, as well increasing the difficulty of breathing due to adding another chemical to the already hazardous atmosphere. It would be great if a system could be designed to avoid these and other problems that would be created by such a situation, though.

JJ

Responsibility areas? Here's what the Acronyms page has:

DPA- Designated Protection Area: That area for which a particular fire protection organization has the primary responsibility for attacking an uncontrolled fire and for directing the suppression action.
FRA- Federal Responsibility Area: National Forest Land, National Park Lands, BLM Public Lands, National Wildlife refuges, Military Reservations, etc.
SRA- State Responsibility Area: Watershed lands designated by the State legislature. These include State Parks but more often are private lands that have watershed characteristics. These lands are always unincorporated, outside of City jurisdictions.
LRA- Local Responsibility Area: These lands are private lands outside of watershed areas designated by the state, or lands incorporated into cities.

Any agreement between these entities is governed by an MOU- or Memorandum of Understanding. Sometimes responsibility for acres are exchanged to reduce response time if there are closer responders. "You're closer, would you do these? We'll do these if you do those." Usually things come out pretty even.

Next topic:
Re "Girls in Groups" not as mature as "Fire Women in Groups"
Some generalizations:

My experience is that "when we are good we are very, very good" and occasionally but rarely "when we are bad, we are horrid!"
Really Really Good way more often than bad or horrid
Really Really Good when not really really young or inexperienced or immature (similar to some high schoolers)
Really Really Good when not composed of 3 that are competitive types; --> 2 in & 1 out dynamic
Really Really Good when have good leadership and role models, often older
Really Really Good when crew has a history or track record of excellent values like "honor, duty, service" and everyone wants and expects behavior that supports those values; crew is inspired

We'll really have made it when <tongue way in cheek>
POSH is a way of life, not a mandated training
there are enough of us to have a powerful "Good Old Girls" network
we can have that brief unplanned meeting that covers important firefighting issues in the women's rest room (or behind the same bush if on the fireline)

Don't rag on the engine 262 dad. Sounds like his daughter and the others on her module were pretty young and lost their capt.

Engine 262s' daughter, I hope it wasn't so horrid that you give up on finishing the program and pursuing a fire career. We need excellent firefighters, leaders and role models that happen to be women. In retrospect many of us that fought our own battles now know that what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger, if you let it -- if you persist and can move on within fire.

Tahoe Terrie

This was posted today on the AAP message board, wanted to share it.

Tom Stein

Montana's News Station - Fair. Accurate. To the Point. -Neptune plane crash victims remembered

This is a general question, I'm not trying to anticipate NTSB official conclusions in any specific incidents. Maybe the WO has considered this in the past, also the Fire and Aviation folks. Just wondering.

Brother Cub

I just got done looking at the SEAT crash photos. My gosh someone was watching
over them. Then reading up on the tanker crash in Reno, they were called home......

I think the longer we are in this service the more we see leave us. We want to be
able to ask the departed, what happened? how? but we can't.

Everyday we go out into the woods we walk a fine line, but it's what we want, what
we do... Public Service.

Just about the time I am sick of the bureaucrats and the virtual hoops I have to jump
through to do what I want (do my job). When I am having a hard time talking myself
into PTs or even turning East on the highway instead of just going home. I get the
opportunity to be reminded why I do this and why I love it and why I put on that
badge and shield.

You just can't quit until G-- tells you it's time.

jj

I posted information on services on the Hotlist thread. Ab.

BLMBoy

Ab,

The pictures are kinda scary when you think how close this came to being a
fatality accident.

BLMBoy

Thanks, BLMBoy, I posted this on its Hotlist thread yesterday. I post many Safety Alerts and Lessons Learned in the discussion subforum. It was a very busy day, and I failed to put the link here. The pics are rather gripping. Ab.

You asked several questions, and I'll give you the answers based entirely upon CA Title 22. I cannot speak for other areas.

Is the mystery dentist's oversight really medical control?

Yes. Dentists do fully qualify under the medical direction standard, both by DOT and CA Title 22.

Are firefighters using EMT interventions really acting under the direction of a physician?

Yes. Standard EMT interventions (normal air adjuncts, first aid, oxygen, and glucose) are covered entirely by local protocol (medical direction) while advanced interventions (AED, Epi-Pen assistance, etc) are normally covered through either individual agency approvals or countywide (area wide) medical direction from the local EMSA.

Where are they directions?

See various state statutes and local EMSA direction. In CA, please read ENTIRELY Title 22.

"If they are not acting under direction, then they are deviating from the standard of care every time they intervene. "

Simply Wrong . EMTs act under protocols (medical direction) and EMT-Ps act under protocols or standing orders (medical direction).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Folks, the battles and discussions were already fought (both in the agencies and in the courts) 30 years ago..... The Wedworth-Townsend Act was adopted in CA, and variations of it were adopted throughout the United States over the next twenty years.

www.calchiefs.org/items/Foundations_EMS.ppt (1618 K ppt file)

KCK

More photos of T-09. Thanks, contributors. Ab.

T-09 at Fox, 2006; T-09 at Fox & T-09 Liftoff: I was extremely saddened to hear about the crash of Tanker 09 this (yesterday) morning. I’m a firefighter with Kern County FD and occasionally work at Fox Tanker Base CA as a parking tender during local fires. In 2006 I came to know Tanker 09 and its crew of that year very well. The crew that died was not the same but here are some memories of T-09 in happier days. Photos compliments of  Nathan F. (0908)

T-09 on Silver Creek Fire 1 & 2: Our crew was sent to the Silver Creek Fire near Bridgeport, CA and we had the chance to see Tanker 09 in action. These were shot about two weeks before the crash. Photos compliments of Chuck S. (0908)

I put them on the AirTankers 26 photo page. Click on the thumbnail for the larger image. Ab.

Last week my green engine responded to a structure fire, second in, my crew took position as a RIT team. Did the crew that were inside the structure care what color our engine was? did the home owner? I don't think so. We got the job done. We (and I mean all of us red, green, white, or yellow engines) kept the fire out of the wildland, therefore out of the Forest, which is good for us. Isn't that what we are always preaching: keep the fires small, keeping it confined to the house, would not have happened if it were not for our crew. My crew did a great job, all this was because we train with Cal Fire. We are doing the job of an all risk department now because that is what our customers expect. Like it or not they are the ones that pay the bills.

smokeater

2. There are many of us who have no problem what so ever being in "all risk" positions, but are not fully certified in all fields to achieve jobs with other agencies or just don't have the desire to work for other agencies for various reasons. And some of these people are in the same job positions as those who do not wish to be part of an "all risk" agency.

3. The thoughts of various federal agencies to again move away from being all risk is not only potentially hazardous from a moral and legal stand point, but is very financially unwise I feel. We have out fitted many pieces of equipment for one form or another of "all risk" response. Whether it be water rescue in a park, or vehicle fires on a hwy through a NF or for a modified role at a Structure fire that might threaten federal lands.

4. I think that if the agencies truly feel the need to "go back" to the way it was when we didn't handle any thing but wildland fires, you will have to strip red lights and sirens, air packs, double jacket hose, med packs, back boards, and various other equipment off of federal equipment. Also you will have to remove the words fire from every piece of equipment, both contract and federal, change the position description and retirement of those of us in the federal service, and launch a major publicity campaign to notify and enforce the change with the public.

5. Truly what we need to recognize is that the public doesn't care what color the apparatus is, what shape or configuration it is, or even if it is a engine on a helicopter or a hot shot crew buggy that pulls up when they need the assistance of the fire service. (Now okay a hot shot crew or any hand crew or helitack probably doesn't really need to be at a structure fire some ones gonna say and you're right; its just a generalized statement.) I have been with a crew that stopped right after a traffic accident happened and we treated the patient, He didn't care that we didn't arrive on a big red engine. Also more public are using federal lands and building both seasonal and full time residences and businesses in areas within and adjacent to federal lands. Sometimes we are the closest emergency responders by quite a bit of time.

6. Any firefighter in any agency at any government level is underpaid for their job, as are Law enforcement officers. And all types of firefighting across the same board have retention problems. But if we go back in our ways and enforce the strictly forestry techs position description etc. as listed in #4, we are actually going to lose more firefighters than we gain or keep. Yes, for people outside of R5, who have no desire to be "all risk" we need to figure out retention stuff across the board, and help keep all of our personnel. True Portal to Portal pay, constant H-pay for all, (including Helitack, hand crews, fire equipment operators etc...) and various retirement issues need to be rationally discussed at a national and congressional level and need to be moved forward on.

The point is that I think what many county and state agencies in and outside of R5 are doing should be a good guideline for what we should do with the federal service. Have resources such as hand crews and some engines designated wildland fire only. And right next to that resource can be another resource properly equipped, trained and prepared to respond to any sort of emergency. And let the applicants choose which it is they want. Just because a person has no desire to do medical calls or structure fires shouldn't mean that they cant be a firefighter on a heavy engine equipped with red lights and sirens capable of a emergency response call when needed (and in this I mean such as structures threatened by a wildland fire, so a "Code 3" response would be justified just to suppress the wildland fire part of the call.)

Does this mean more money on training and equipment? maybe. But to me this seams to be much more reasonable and justifiable to congress and to the public than to attempt to, well for a lack of better terms go back in time to the early eighties when all we did was fight vegetation fires on federal lands. And believe it or not there are firefighters outside of R5 that we would gain in the federal service, but wont because they want to be structure firefighters, and respond to medical calls, etc... I have had the joy of working with several of them on handcrews outside of R5.

We all need to give and take a little, I think, including those on capitol hill, but for the good of those citizens that we answer to when it's all said and done.

Does this sound like a pitch for a federal agency whose sole purpose is federal fire?....maybe it is. If done properly maybe it would be beneficial to separate fire from the various federal agencies, and actually unite them under a truly single set of standards and qualifications.

May be im drinkin draino, but for what its worth, that's my thoughts.

Jason Myer
A Fed firefighter

I think that PB has responded with the best info possible on the subject. It is an absolute mess. It seems like every little "response area" (for lack of a better term) has things that their EMT's can and can't do. I guess the best thing to remember is that you do the best you can in the situation with the understanding that you might have to explain your actions to a group of your peers (a jury). When I go out on a wildland engine and a medical happens I try to help the best I can with what I have until a local ambulance or response crew shows up to take over. Also I know that the Park service has an active Paramedic/EMT program so any parkie (or BIA) insight would be appreciated (a couple of federal agencies that have ambulances).

Air goes in and out, blood goes 'round and 'round and anything else is bad...

R1 Gutterball Medic

"Any person who in good faith renders emergency care, without renumeration or expectation of renumeration, at the scene of an accident or emergency to the victim of the accident or emergency shall not be liable for any civil damages resulting from the persons acts or omission, except for such damages as may result from the persons gross negligence or wanton acts or omissions."

NorCal AFEO

SBI

Factor in lack of leadership with age and experience of the young women he's talking about. It's too bad they didn't have someone like you for a leader. Ab.

What we know right now for sure is that

• Retardant was requested for a fire.
• The air tanker carrying retardant took off at Stead (Reno) and crashed.
• The NTSB is figuring it all out using interviews, dispatch logs, looking at the plane, etc.
  
  That's their job. Let them do it. We all want to know.

Condolences to families, friends, coworkers. This is hard for all. Ab.

Yes, the militia is still alive and well in some parts of the country. Having worked in R-9 in the past, I know this first hand. On the forest I used to work on, we would not have been able to fight fire or do prescribed fire without them. Heck for some time I was the only primary fire guy on my district, so I had militia with me all the time (usually a GS-9 or up). But one problem that can come with a militia-based program is the gross I mean GROSS waste of fire funds. But that's another story!

AV

Ab:

In AZ an agency may elect to have EMTs placed under medical direction
but are not required to do so by the State. Many agencies elect not to do
so.

Mike Bradley
Deputy IC
Northern Arizona IMT

Noname EMT,

In my (worthless) opinion, the Forest Service has its head in the sand when it comes to putting EMTs on the fireline. What follows is just my opinion, and I'm sure there are people who would fight with me over it, but with no oversight, no medical control, and no clear set of protocols, the Agency is practically begging you to commit malpractice.

You probably hear rationalizations like, "when I'm on the fireline, I have my Forest Service hat, and when someone gets hurt I take it off and put on my local fire department hat." That's absurd. The bottom line is whether or not your ass is going to be covered in the event of a bad outcome. Your local fire department's insurance isn't going to volunteer to pay the tab any old time you step in to provide patient care -- it will cover you only within the scope of your fire department activities. And begrudgingly, at that; it's insurance after all. They're in the business of collecting premiums, not paying disbursements.

You may have heard that the doctrine of sovereign immunity will insulate you from liability in your private capacity, so long as the incident takes place at work. Poppycock. Medical care is hardly within the scope of the USDA's mission. Or, if it is, the issues aren't clear-cut enough. The question, as you noted in your post, is whether a plaintiff will be able to state a claim in court and tie you up in legal stuff years, not whether the plaintiff will ultimately win on that claim.

You might have been advised not to worry, because you will only be liable if the four elements of tort are present (duty, breach, harm, causation). But what on earth does that really mean? Your "duty" as a licensed EMT working as a wildland firefighter could hardly be less clear. One one hand you have no direct medical oversight, so from a legal perspective, is it really appropriate to intervene without on- or off-line medical control? Wouldn't that be a breach of your duty? Yet on the other hand your agency has identified you as an EMT and put you out there with the representation that you will assist in the event of a medical incident. What would happen if someone did get hurt, and you declined to intervene without medical control? This isn't the case of the doctor who drives by a car accident and declines to pull over; this is the case of the doctor who does pull over, gets out her car, says "Hello, I'm a doctor, but I'm unwilling to intervene." Isn't that a breach of your duty, too? Note that these are often jury questions, so even if you are ultimately vindicated, resolution will not come until deep into the legal proceedings.

If you feel confused, it is because you should. This stuff is confusing. The issues here simply aren't clear, and every ambiguity creates a wedge from which to leverage a lawsuit. The good news is that you probably have few assets (which makes you "judgment-proof") and are unlikely to be sued, or if you are sued, you will not be sued all on your lonesome. The bad news is that carrying liability insurance will change all that -- suddenly you'll be a target. All the same, banking on the fact that you have few assets hardly seems like a winning strategy, does it?

I'm sorry that there is no clear answer for you. Eventually, there probably will be some resolution on these questions. But it will likely take a lawsuit.

On a completely unrelated note, my condolences, thoughts, and sadness extends to the families and friends of the tanker crew members who recently lost their lives at the Reno Airport.

PB

"With the diversity we have, I learned a long time ago we can't please everyone. Heck we even lost a member from Nevada recently because she was tired of reading all the "whining on TheySaid from R5" and didn't want to be an all-risk firefighter."

We are wildland firefighters... We are firefighters. It doesn't get any more simple than that, or more confusing. "All-Risk" has just been a confusing factor for some who don't understand or appreciate our history and losses as a wildland fire community.

'We can't please everyone' ..... As the FWFSA, we all too well know that things are ever evolving and changing, but WE (as a community) CAN provide for "the greatest good, for the greatest number, in the long run".

Likewise, Casey Judd and the entire FWFSA Board of Directors (including myself) serve at the pleasure and support of our membership (GS-2 through GS-14), and through our extended outreach programs with members, prospective members, and through extensive Congressional (Legislative) and Executive Branch contacts on wildland fire related issues.

The FWFSA has its finger on the pulse of what is happening in the federal wildland fire program. The FWFSA is a national employee association of federal wildland firefighters entirely supported by field and manager membership. The FWFSA is not a Union, but a cross section of the wildland fire community as a whole.

If you would like further information, please contact Casey Judd (FWFSA Business Manager), or a member of the FWFSA Board of Directors www.fwfsa.org ..

/s/ Kenneth Kempter
Vice President
Federal Wildland Fire Service Association (FWFSA)

Just to add to the debate about EMTs performing while on the line, remember that an EMT license is an extension of a medical doctor's license. What I mean by this is that as an EMT you work under and for a MD who ultimately has responsibility for "your" actions as an EMT while you are performing your duties (you are under his/her malpractice insurance). This is some of the reason why you run into varying levels of EMT-B care in the same state/region (I am not sure about IMS personnel but I believe that they have a MD they work under on the larger type 1 and type 2 fires). Anyways, the feds have always been skidish about getting into medical because they don't want the hassle of having an MD just for say a local office or forest. Just remember that even though they might want to take your ability to "legally" treat someone, you have the knowledge an the skill to make a positive difference in someone's life with as little as a set of rubber gloves.

R1 Gutterball Medic

"We found foresters, 'ologists, engineering types, techs and professionals filling entire 20 person crews (type 2). Others staffed engines, worked in expanded dispatch centers, served as com unit leaders or com techs, GIS specialists, finance chiefs, procurement, security, staging area managers, strike team leaders, division supes, logisitics chiefs, planning chiefs, ops chiefs and ICT3s. Across the country this totaled in the thousands."

I suspect that the data is fundamentally flawed; the collection method is flawed or skewed; or the intent and purpose of the data collection is being wrongfully interpreted.

If this "collection" request was indeed from the WO...... It (and the results) is FOIAable and should be released on the record for each person to come to their own conclusions.

Respectfully,

Gizmo

I met some "non-ff-retirement" firefighters during this summer's norcal fires. They were not from R5. Ab.

Here is a picture of T-09 from last fall at Fox Tanker Base in Lancaster, CA.

I knew two of the three folks who were killed, and their loss is huge. It's a very sad day in the tanker base world.

MEL

I put it on the AirTankers 26 photo page. Click on the thumbnail for the larger image. Thanks MEL. Ab.

The "militia" lives.
Or at least it did throughout the season of 2006. I remember the message coming through that the WO wanted a count of the militia. That filtered down to forests and dispatch centers. It was fairly simple. Look at the resource orders you filled for "off-forest" assignments, and do a number count of the "militia" (non-primary firefighters aka those who don't qualify for ff retirement).

We found foresters, 'ologists, engineering types, techs and professionals filling entire 20 person crews (type 2). Others staffed engines, worked in expanded dispatch centers, served as com unit leaders or com techs, GIS specialists, finance chiefs, procurement, security, staging area managers, strike team leaders, division supes, logisitics chiefs, planning chiefs, ops chiefs and ICT3s. Across the country this totaled in the thousands.

Maybe they've all quit in the past two years. Someone mentioned there is "no incentive" for militia to respond. I don't know.... maybe they like the adventure, the change of routine, or perhaps the approximate 100 hours of OT one can earn in a 2 week off-forest assignment. Hey, maybe the militia folks have bills to pay just like the primary firefigher types.

I know folks can have different perspectives or views of the world. I've not seen the Pacific Ocean in a decade, but I'd trust that it still exists even if only on the word of someone with a different vantage point.

I'll check back in a couple weeks.
Ya'll stay safe.

OFG

This ’55 report California A-Flame (600K pdf file) says so much…

The last line…

”And still another tragic loss-- one firefighter was killed by a falling tree.”

I wonder how his family was cared for after his death…

Shari

Fire Community, I tried to post this info on theysaid yesterday evening but there were so many folks on the Hotlist that the server wouldn't work for posting. It is sad. Here's the Hotlist thread. Feel free to post condolences there. Thanks Gordo. Ab.

"Gizmo, Your perspective is limited and incorrect. Look at type 2 crews, many of the staff on engines, folks in logistics, planning and finance.....There are thousands of "militia" (non-"primary" firefighters) contributing to the firefighting effort each year. Ya'll need to get out more."

I read your reference three times before it sank in.... Either you intended the sentences above to be tongue-in-cheek, or you have been detached from the field for a long while.

I agree with you though that P-to-P should include everyone, but the key issues shouldn't be clouded or ignored at the expense of "the greatest good, for the greatest number, in the long run". I'll stick to my perspective as being not so limited nor incorrect as you may have wrongfully assumed. When I started, much of what you described was in place.... but 28 years later.... it's a much different world within the federal wildland fire program.

Respectfully,

Gizmo

This could simply be what each of you see at your own geographic location. It's fine to agree to disagree. I'd be happy to pass messages behind the scenes if you like. Ab.

My wife retired from a local government department but is still employed part-time for ICS assignments to the feds. During the recent Northern California fires she made $ 20,400 dollars for 34 days and the department charged a 20% admin fee and post coverage. Her only employment for this department is to fill the ICS position request. Just an example of cost containment at its finest, but all legal and up front.

Planning for Retirement

"Because of that, many ADs ( mostly retirees) have joined local fire departments
which then makes them employees of that department. They make a lot more than
the FEDS at that point, making similar to the Cal Fire /Muni pay. They are paid PP.
The fire departments bill back to the Feds with an admin fee for the service.
Which earns the department some extra cash."

This "tactic" of getting folks more money is a little disturbing but hey, more power to 'em.
If the Feds want to keep dishing out the money in this manner, so be it.

Hugh Carson

"But the real culprit in all of this are the federal agencies who have been
totally negligent in addressing staffing problems on incidents, problems
which the AD community have and continue to partially solve, though at
comparatively ridiculously low wages"

This is what I was referring to and its a big problem. Sorry to get you worked up on this
labor day, that wasn't my intent.

Noname 51

Back in 78, I had a young woman on my Basic Forest Firefighter Training class.
She ran circles around most of us. She is now an SFR1 in Central Cal...still with
CalFire, and still kicking a$$! God love her, I don't think there was anyone that
wouldn't follow her into the fight.

Several changes were made to a few stations to accommodate her, but she kept
on playing the game. Talked to her a few months back, she's doing great. Tell your
daughter to keep on keeping on. There need to be more women like that in this
industry!

KUDOs and good luck to her!

TS

(SFR1 = State Forest Ranger 1........same as a Battalion Chief)

I have bit my tongue for four years, enough!

Where does one start in describing the joint US Department of Labor/USDA
Forest Service's Wildland Firefighter Specialist apprentice program?

Admittedly I'm old-school, started fighting fire at 16 back in 78', when
CDF had brush crews/fire aids, that's where I started, learned from the
ground up carried brass and hose, only permitted to use handtools, nothing
with a motor since we were only 16. Graduated University w/BS, was primary
fire, now I'm not but still a crewboss. So...when this fire apprentice
program came along, and my daughter was graduating high school but not
liking the whole college scene, we attended a forest service "job fair" in
So Cal at my duty station (Region 5). I apologize to my daughter right now,
my mistake!

I should have known better, it was all puppies and rainbows, and I'll tell
you one more thing, I swear they said the kids would convert as GS 5/7/9's,
but I didn't get it on tape, d*mn! Of course we were a proud Forest Service
family, continuing the tradition, signing-up the next generation, make us
proud and do something noble, you know, add to the good-of-the-order,
things I was taught, believed, still do.

Well, maybe not!

First Season:
Handcrew. The first call came from my kid at 0100, 12 travel hours away,
and she was hiding in her truck with the doors locked because her "Mentor"
got ticked-off at the crew for someone eating his stash of (insert favorite
food/beverage here) and he screamed at everyone in the barracks that he was
going to cut everyone's throat that night. Everyone scattered, she was
scared, I don't blame her, 18, female, first week away from home and 700
miles away! She slept in the back of her SUV most of the season.

Her module assignment was for handcrew, fine, handcrews are great, I still
enjoy leading handcrews. Her handcrew was type 2 and not a crew, it was a
short crew of 10, with another short crew of 10 from another District. They
were a project crew retained by the forest for fire assignments if the
forest got desperate. Needless to say the caliber of supervisory and
permanent folks on the crew was reflective of their achievement of being
placed on this crew and in life in general. Leadership was not present, the
crewboss was a short-timer, old, burned-out, and did not subscribe to the
"teach-for-success" philosophy, doubt he could spell it! Their assignments
were very few and far between, and a fiasco when they were on assignment as
there was no real Supt., no Captains, and the Squaddies were old temps, one
of whom was the purported throat-cutter. Of course when fire season was
over the crew had not earned even half of the supposed crew-module
on-the-job hours, her task books went completely unsigned for the tasks she
had completed, and she was automatically way behind the curve on completing
the program on-schedule.

Second Season:
Helitack, was actually good! Good Supt, reasonably good
Captains, Squaddies were ok but still immature enough to carry on the
social vendettas inherent on any crew, but what the h*ll it was day and
night from handcrew. The only real friction on this crew was the habit of
some of the crew to tell the females on the pack-outs that they (the guys)
were going to get them (the girls) to quit, and the guys would load-up the
girl's packs to over a hundred pounds, mind you the girls are about 120
pounds soaking wet, this would be the same as the guys packing-out 210
pound packs on their backs, which of course the guys never did. The girls
decided to take the challenge and said they would rather die than quit and
the pack-out started. The guys then told the girls that they were gapping
the line and to hurry up the pace. Yes, the girls finished, yes they
gapped, but... they finished with 100+ pound packs and the macho guys hiked
out with 60 pound packs, not 210 pounds. Besides this and the inherent
risks those pack-outs entailed for the safety (knee joints, ankles, backs,
falling great vertical distances) and unity of the crew, helitack was a
good season. Oh yeah,1 taskbook with about 5 tasks signed, task books
got signed (a bit)!

Season Three:
Engine. Model 62, Type 3, great Captain, horrible FEO, good Squaddie. The
Captain was former military, squared-away, fair, knowledgeable, taught for
success. High hopes. He needed to promote so detailed out as a single
resource for the season and the FEO was acting Capt. Several out of Region
assignments, no chain-of-command, no discipline, and three girls on one
Engine. Sorry, pc or not, three girls on one Engine DOES NOT work, ask a
female ff about crew dynamics with several girls on a module. My kid was
the Senior FF for the season but was not provided the chain-of-command from
the FEO so there was no hierarchy and the crew kind of hobbled along
through the entire season. Yes they made it home safe, no they didn't get
their expected hours, and no my kid did not get her task books signed off
for all the work that she did complete, again.

Season Four:
The forest doesn't really know what to do with my daughter at this point
since she has successfully completed both academies, has completed all
three module assignments, but is lacking in completion of ojt hours and CDL
permit training. Well the forest graciously announced they were extending
her apprenticeship another year, to season five, in order to catch-up her
ojt hours and get the CDL permit training and hours. Sorry, any extension
is voluntary not compulsory, there is a four year max contract, indenture
date to completion date. The USDAFS must complete all apprenticeship
training and ojt hours within that four year window, period. Big Meetings
had to happen. Outcome was the forest had to juggle her to another District
where they were squared away, got her the hours she was lacking and the CDL
stick time and experience, and completed the forest service obligations of
completed task books as well. She is still working to get a conversion to
her choice of a module (read the FSM, "any unit in the Forest Service").

The BAD LIST, the common denominator's that are sinking this program (my opinion of course having lived four years of it):

• Apprentice Coordinators that are assigned the responsibilities as additional work rather than volunteering for a separate, full-time detail.
• Not moving the Apprentices around from unit-to-unit or forest-to-forest for each Module assignment for breadth of experience.
• Not providing access to Lotus Notes or a USFS computer so the Apprentices cannot keep track of their hours.
• Assigned District Apprentice training officers that outright lose the Apprentices training records and completed hour records.
• Task Books are not assigned to anyone with a supervisory position on the Modules so said books are not signed off to record experience.
• Mentors are not permanent employees, they are usually temps, who make a special project of making Apprentices quit.
  Hazing and harassment continue each and every Module, especially for the females, the testing never stops, they never get accepted!
• Temporary employees are on each Module and they are not drug tested.
• They get blitzed, drag the crew down, both physically & emotionally.
• Housing sucks, discipline (read safety for the females) is nonexistent, cleanliness is nonexistent, inspections are nonexistent, no repercussions.
• Module leaders who are retired-in-place cannot stand the Apprentices and single them out for special hazing, humiliation, and retribution.
• There are NO ADVOCATES on-forest for these kids, none, they are sold a bill of goods at the job-fairs, signed-up to a government contract, told they are hero's at academy, and treated like poop when they arrive at their District.
• Approximately 50%-70% of the Apprentices who started with my daughter at Basic Academy quit and did not finish, most didn't complete 2 full seasons.

The GOOD LIST:

• Training, and lots of it, good training at McClellan.
• Helitack skills and competencies that are always good to have, and taught well.
• Developing a healthy respect for teamwork, hard work, and surviving life experiences.
• Developing a self-reliant attitude and character.
• Learning fire from the ground up.
• If you survive, especially as a female candidate, a sense of real accomplishment that cannot be taken away.

That's all I have for the Apprentice Program as R5 runs it. Doubtless someone, or many, will think I'm full of cr*p for writing this but it is the honest truth of what I and my daughter have experienced. Hope this is published and that someone at a higher GS level will take this for constructive feedback and not just for criticism.

Engine 262.

Thanks, Engine 262, you old theysaider, you.
Isn't this primarily a forest issue? Many of the problems or shortfalls you bring up sound like they're fixable. How can these things get streamlined?
The hazing has got to stop.
I'm glad you included a GOOD LIST. Your daughter has always been a hard worker and self reliant. How could she be better? The steel demonstrated by Demi Moore in "GI Jane" comes to mind... Ab.

• Duty to Act,
• Breach of that Duty,
• Proximate Cause (something that the responder did to worsen or cause the damage suffered by the patient), &
• Actual Damages.

In regards to PLI, it has been said by many that if you have things to protect, such as house, toys, etc then PLI is a consideration, especially if your agency doesn't have enough to back you.

Good luck, I hear you on your concerns.

SoCalMedic

• a. A physician responsible for the clinical and patient care aspects of an EMS system.
• b. Every ambulance service/rescue squad must have physician medical direction.
• c. Types of medical direction

(1) On-line
• (a) Telephone
• (b) Radio

(2) Off-line

• (a) Protocols
• (b) Standing orders
• d. Responsible for reviewing quality improvement

• a. Designated agent of the physician
• b. Care rendered is considered an extension of the medical director's authority (varies by state law).

F. Specific statutes and regulations regarding EMS in your state.

ref: www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/ems/pub/emtbnsc.pdf

As I just came from a fire assignment in Oregon, I include the following; (bold italics added for emphasis)

Oregon Revised Statute 682.245 reads in part as follows:

1. The Board of Medical Examiners for the State of Oregon shall adopt by rule a scope of practice for emergency medical technicians B, I and P
2. The standing orders for emergency medical technicians may not exceed the scope of practice defined by the board.
3. No emergency medical technician shall provide patient care or treatment without written authorization and standing orders from a supervising physician who has been approved by the board.
4. The policies and procedures for applying and enforcing scope of practice may be delegated in whole or in part to the Health Services of the Department of Human Resources.

The above listed scope of practice is taken from Oregon Administrative Rule 847-35-0030, dated 4/98.

As Forest Service employees operating as EMTs whether on the fireline or a project, it is difficult to know what local protocols to operate under when you have certification from one state and are working in another. As is very clearly noted above, without medical direction from a physician, you are in violation of the law.

The answer to this dilemma is of course to develop our own protocols and procedures under medical direction at a national, regional and local level. Some regions (R-5 for instance) operate in an 'all-risk' environment and already have a system in place, however this system also requires improvement.

I believe that the individual from California with the very low EMT certification number misunderstood. Operating as an EMT, even when not completing the more difficult or technical tasks, requires a relationship with a physician to obtain training, counseling and opportunities to improve and practice their skills.

As for 'Noname EMT', all I can suggest is that you continue your training, maintain your certification and hope that in the future progress will be made in solving this problem. As I have said before, this is something I have been working on for over five years.

Brian Kliesen

I'm revising the materials for L-381 Incident Leadership for MCS.

Got some good photos from some folks. Appreciate it

BUT still need: (1) an engine photo of engine crew putting in a hose lay up
a hill with fire in the background and (2) photo of a progressive hose lay
and (3) running attack wet line off one or several engines

You may send the photos direct to airops@paonia.com.

Much thanks in advance.

Hugh Carson

Mike Johns is a good guy in the DOJ (check on the Docs Worth Reading section of
the wildlandfire.com Archives for his contributions for a starter). Guns n Hoses is a
member of this community who was a firefighter that's now a LEO. No doubt there
are other good lawyers and law enforcers... I think I have a stereotype at work that
isn't fair to individuals.

As one person who has badmouthed lawyers, as well as the legal and law people out
there, I'm vowing to restrain myself. Henceforth!

Strider, I do hear your frustration. I agree with you on the FWFSA advice

Mellie

In the meantime Pena et al need to finish the pay recommendations SOON and implement. At least one HS supt has an offer from CalFire. Where do we get replacements for these fire savvy fire managers that know risk assessment? Offer these people a retention deal!

Everybody, Join the FWFSA!

Strider

http://www.fwfsa.org/

Many Americans today are leaving behind the comfort of a home to get out of the way of a Cat-3, maybe Cat-4 hurricane. Some do not have the means to support themselves. If you get the opportunity to head to the southern area, always remember the work we do will impact many people, many people that we never even meet. 

Never Forget BLACK TUESDAY - April 1, 2008

Say I do my best. I get blamed anyway? 

I had hoped to help by getting my EMT. To be prepared. Now I'm worried that I might be at risk for getting tied up in legal stuff  for up to 7 yr like Ellreese just for doing the best I can when it's hard to get patients to hospital during the "golden hour". 

Should I let my EMT lapse? or choose to not use it? Do we all need PLI like the ICs now? Good grief, what's the world coming too???? People want to help. They want to be prepared when off in the woods in a risky environment. They do their best and after a death some "Justice Dpt" or "Law" people decide the EMT is to blame! Even if we're innocent there could be years of anxiety anguish uncertainty disruption head-tripping post-traumatic-stress-nightmares just because somebody thought there was something "criminal" because someone dies and someone or something has to be held accountable like the world is black and white???

Noname EMT

You wrote: "How about the AD retirees we are paying HIGH rates for in these
support positions?"

Just where are you getting your information on these "High rates?" You've
got to be kidding me!! Are you open to the facts? 

Here's one for you: The difference in a 2-week pay period between a GS-12
Air Operations Branch Director getting true time-and-one-half and an AD AOBD
is $3,000. (During my tenure as Chair of the AD Firefighter Association we
documented these differences in pay and brought them to the attention of
state and federal legislators, as well as federal and state fire agencies.)

That $3000 difference, my dear friend, is a chunk of change, and is exactly
the reason, as well as the failure of the feds to guarantee any sort of
protection from liability, that numerous retirees do not participate any
more. 

And if you maintain that currently-employed federal firefighters can meet
the staffing challenges on IMTs and for miscellaneous overhead, then you are
indeed living in a fact-free world. 

You really punched my button on that one. Instead of tearing down others
(e.g., state and local participants who are rightfully paid well), I suggest
that your efforts and anger might be better directed toward supporting Casey
and the FWFSA. I do, though I don't derive any direct benefit - my support
is simple: he and FWFSA are right, and they are right on target.

And as to the nearly-defunct AD Firefighter Association, the less said the
better, but I'll say it anyway (grin). The current ADFA Board and their
abject failure to make any significant progress in terms of pay, treatment
of ADs, liability, etc. is abominable 

The ADFA got on a real roll when some committed ADs formed the ADFA in 2003.
We did it by putting out factual information; our motto was 'equal pay for
equal work;" and we kept the pressure up on the federal agencies. We didn't
make friends, but we gained respect from not only the AD community but some
of those who pull some weight in the agencies.

However, for the last three years, we've gotten nothing but fluff and
blather from ADFA. And that can be laid directly at the door of the ADFA
Board who, consciously or through laziness and lack of commitment, have
failed to follow up on the initiatives with the legislative branch (Congress
and Governors) that the original Board started. 

As I've stated before, my feeling is that the Board members would rather be
liked by the agencies ("the good ole boy" system lives on!!) rather than
getting anything of consequence done. Enough on that. It's a real sore
subject with me. 

But the real culprit in all of this are the federal agencies who have been
totally negligent in addressing staffing problems on incidents, problems
which the AD community have and continue to partially solve, though at
comparatively ridiculously low wages

Here's to the unvarnished truth, Noname 51.

Regards,

Hugh Carson

Unless I completely missed the context of your last post about High rates for AD retirees, you are way off the mark. The average Group/Division level AD position (retiree or not) makes about $22-27/ hr. There is no OT or HP. That is a flat rate billed to the Feds for actual hours of work. No retirement, health, or employer burden like Social Security or Medicare. There is no unemployment burden for the federal government because "they" have passed a law exempting them from having those wages eligible for UI compensation.

Take a GS-9 Sacramento CA. area employee on a fire makes about $30/hr with HP and when OT kicks in another $12 on top of that. Still not